Would You Do This ?

[garisilver]

I had a friend call me to look at his panel. It's an older Square D panel and the bus was burnt under the water heater breaker. I tried to locate a good used replacement, but couldn't, so I told him I needed to replace the panel. It's in a condo and the main for his panel is in a locked meter room. The condo management told him that they wouldn't open the room so we could shut it off without a permit.
I'm a master electrician, but I have my license inactive since I work for someone else. I can't pull a permit.
But with or without a permit, I wouldn't do what I'm about to tell you.
My friend calls a contractor who tells him the job will be $1,700, but if he will let them do it without a permit, it will cost $850. He said okay. Well, I think we all know that some contractors have 2 levels of work, one permitted and one not permitted.
For $850, they took the live feeder off the panel main lugs and taped them up. No electric room access needed. Then they pulled the bus out of the existing Square D can and screwed in a new GE bus with GE breakers. Then they screwed the GE panel cover to the wall.
I'm pissed.
I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

 

[goldstar]

Personally speaking, I would not have done this job without a permit and certainly would not have wanted to work this live. The liability is greater than what the job is worth. However, from a safety standpoint, if the other EC did not remove the SE cable or feeders from the panel and merely taped them up or safed them off and then replaced the damaged bus with an identical bus then I see nothing wrong with that. But, you're still taking a chance. Also, shaving a couple of $$ off the asking price of a job is one thing. Cutting the price in half for cash is quite another. Talk about a bottom feeder - I hope I never have to work at that level.:happysad:

 

[GerryB]

Personally speaking, I would not have done this job without a permit and certainly would not have wanted to work this live. The liability is greater than what the job is worth. However, from a safety standpoint, if the other EC did not remove the SE cable or feeders from the panel and merely taped them up or safed them off and then replaced the damaged bus with an identical bus then I see nothing wrong with that. But, you're still taking a chance. Also, shaving a couple of $$ off the asking price of a job is one thing. Cutting the price in half for cash is quite another. Talk about a bottom feeder - I hope I never have to work at that level.:happysad:

I've done that a couple times like if a main failed and you couldn't pull the meter or wait for the poco but as was noted you take a chance. If he tripped the main he would be in hot water. I have a similar job coming up in a condo and they wanted my insurance and license but no permit. Also you say they took out sqD guts and put in GE? Then they screwed the cover to the wall, so it's not bonded to the can? Sounds like a ham and egg job to me.

 

[mgookin]

I had a friend call me to look at his panel. It's an older Square D panel and the bus was burnt under the water heater breaker. I tried to locate a good used replacement, but couldn't, so I told him I needed to replace the panel. It's in a condo and the main for his panel is in a locked meter room. The condo management told him that they wouldn't open the room so we could shut it off without a permit.
I'm a master electrician, but I have my license inactive since I work for someone else. I can't pull a permit.
But with or without a permit, I wouldn't do what I'm about to tell you.
My friend calls a contractor who tells him the job will be $1,700, but if he will let them do it without a permit, it will cost $850. He said okay. Well, I think we all know that some contractors have 2 levels of work, one permitted and one not permitted.
For $850, they took the live feeder off the panel main lugs and taped them up. No electric room access needed. Then they pulled the bus out of the existing Square D can and screwed in a new GE bus with GE breakers. Then they screwed the GE panel cover to the wall.
I'm pissed.
I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

I thought the tenant/ occupant had to have access to the main. If it's a condo, that's not back to back, which means there has to be a main OCPD at the meter center.

Another idea is call the fire dept (or tell the condo association that's your only alternative) and tell them you have a melting bus and the association won't let you throw the main.

Condo associations and their management are not technical people. They need to be educated some times. But sometimes they're just not educatable.

 

[texie]

I had a friend call me to look at his panel. It's an older Square D panel and the bus was burnt under the water heater breaker. I tried to locate a good used replacement, but couldn't, so I told him I needed to replace the panel. It's in a condo and the main for his panel is in a locked meter room. The condo management told him that they wouldn't open the room so we could shut it off without a permit.
I'm a master electrician, but I have my license inactive since I work for someone else. I can't pull a permit.
But with or without a permit, I wouldn't do what I'm about to tell you.
My friend calls a contractor who tells him the job will be $1,700, but if he will let them do it without a permit, it will cost $850. He said okay. Well, I think we all know that some contractors have 2 levels of work, one permitted and one not permitted.
For $850, they took the live feeder off the panel main lugs and taped them up. No electric room access needed. Then they pulled the bus out of the existing Square D can and screwed in a new GE bus with GE breakers. Then they screwed the GE panel cover to the wall.
I'm pissed.
I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

If a permit is required, that is dependent on the AHJ rules.
I would not accept a hack job like this and neither should your friend.
A big issue for me though is the idea that some condo manager weenie thinks he can block access to the feeder breaker. If I were the owner I would have told him to open it or get out the way and I'll unlock my way. It's none of the management's business why you need to get to your feeder breaker and they have no right to refuse access.

 

[kwired]

Assuming the only bad part of the panel bus was in the one breaker position, I would have rather seen them do the NO permit version by installing tandem breakers to gain necessary spaces than to do what they did .

 

[Ponchik]

If I have the chance of turning the power off, I will. Some times you need to work the system hot. I have done permitted/inspected Residential main panel upgrades with the underground conductors still energized, even shorten the underground conduit so the new panel fits. (emergency repair)

In OP situation something sounds fishy: $850 no permit work $1750 with getting the permits????? Cost of the permit is $850?? :happysad::happysad:

 

[GoldDigger]

Nope. Extra cost of doing the work right so the inspector will pass it is $850 - permit cost.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

 

[kbsparky]

The cost of obtaining a permit, and waiting around for the inspector to show up can be quite high in some areas.

It probably has more to do with the inconvenience and trouble dealing with the bureaucracy, scheduling, etc. than it does with actual installation compliance. :happysad:

Changing out the guts in an existing panel should not require a permit, since no "upgrade" is taking place --- no more than replacing a bad switch or receptacle should require one.

 

[Ponchik]

Changing out the guts in an existing panel should not require a permit, since no "upgrade" is taking place --- no more than replacing a bad switch or receptacle should require one.

It depnds on jurisdiction. Locally we need a permit for the panel work. In addition some local jurisdiction require working smoke detectors battery or hardwired anytime a permit is pulled.

 

[Fulthrotl]

I had a friend call me to look at his panel. It's an older Square D panel and the bus was burnt under the water heater breaker. I tried to locate a good used replacement, but couldn't, so I told him I needed to replace the panel. It's in a condo and the main for his panel is in a locked meter room. The condo management told him that they wouldn't open the room so we could shut it off without a permit.
I'm a master electrician, but I have my license inactive since I work for someone else. I can't pull a permit.
But with or without a permit, I wouldn't do what I'm about to tell you.
My friend calls a contractor who tells him the job will be $1,700, but if he will let them do it without a permit, it will cost $850. He said okay. Well, I think we all know that some contractors have 2 levels of work, one permitted and one not permitted.
For $850, they took the live feeder off the panel main lugs and taped them up. No electric room access needed. Then they pulled the bus out of the existing Square D can and screwed in a new GE bus with GE breakers. Then they screwed the GE panel cover to the wall.
I'm pissed.
I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

well, it's not UL listed.
it's not permitted.
it's a complete hack job.

but.... there is a factor here.
your friend went for the shlock job, for half price.
AFTER he talked to you, and without calling and asking you before
proceeding if this was an OK thing to do.

why are you pissed?
he got what he paid for.

not to be disrespectful either to you, or your friend, behind
every bottom feeder hack worker, there is a bottom feeding
customer that price is everything to.

as for the association management, i'd have just called them
up and said you needed to shut off the panel feed to perform
a safety inspection of the inside of the panel, in compliance
with NFPA70E.

if they refused, i'd explain that you were then going to call the
fire department and have the door opened, as there was a fire
hazard present, and you needed to perform a safety inspection.

 

[Ponchik]

Not every cheap work is hack work. The installer may not have an operating business like you and I do so does not need to charge for insurance, CEU, licensing, permit...... So he keeps his cost down. It could very well be that he is an employee of a company and does side work, and he is a real good electrician and does a beautiful installation.

Now, by hiring a person to work for you, you "the home owner or the business owner" need to make sure they are licensed and you carry insurance, otherwise you will get into major trouble if the person gets hurt on the job or the their installtion causes damage, fire or hurts someone.

 

[zbang]

not to be disrespectful either to you, or your friend, behind
every bottom feeder hack worker, there is a bottom feeding
customer that price is everything to.

As WC Fields said "You can't cheat an honest man." and someone else, can't recall who at the moment, said "There's a subtle difference between being frugal and being cheap".

 

[PetrosA]

I second what Fulthrotl wrote - it's hack work at a price point your buddy was interested in.

That being said, many of us have customers from time to time who don't want to pay for permits/inspections for whatever reason. I can understand that sometimes, other times not so much. What I don't understand is guys who do two levels of work depending on whether a job will be inspected or not. I charge the same and do the same level of work either way, but the customer has to cover permit and inspection fees in addition to my work. I have to do it that way here in PA because each AHJ has totally different pricing - from as little as $45 with inspection included to over $100 for permit plus inspection separate which can total in the $200-$300 range even for small jobs (or more if the AHJ forces upgrades to smoke detectors etc. for any permit pulled) - not something you can just "pack" into your labor charges. The price difference you describe suggests this guy regularly does lower grade work and "leads" his customers to those cheaper solutions by charging so much more for permitted and inspected work. He's not a hack. A hack wouldn't know the difference. This guy knows he's doing bad work and uses customers' cheapness to support it. To me that's despicable.

 

[John120/240]

and someone else, can't recall who at the moment, said "There's a subtle difference between being frugal and being cheap".

Google says Erma Bombeck

 

[garisilver]

Thanks for all of the responses. I just want to address a couple of points that were brought up in the replies.
I'm pissed because I feel my friend was taken advantage of. He didn't realize he was going to get a non-conforming job. He sees a panel that works when the installer leaves. Like a lot of people, he probably thought that if it works, it must be okay. I wish he had called me and told me what the contractor proposed to do before he said okay, but he didn't.
The bus wasn't replaced with an exact replacement. It was an obsolete Square D load center from the 70's and parts are not available. That's why I was going to replace the entire panel. If I was just replacing the bus, I would have been able to do it hot, but pulling out a flush mounted can with EMT top and bottom and refitting a new, larger can is just too risky live.
There wasn't any room in the panel to abandon the burnt spaces and relocate the breaker. And all of the legitimate tandem locations already had tandem breakers.
Unfortunately, my friend, not realizing there would be an issue, told the management person what we planned to do.
And, amen to Gold Diggers response. Well put.

 

[rt66electric]

install double thin twin breakers??

install double thin twin breakers??

I had a friend call me to look at his panel. It's an older Square D panel and the bus was burnt under the water heater breaker. I tried to locate a good used replacement, but couldn't, so I told him I needed to replace the panel. It's in a condo and the main for his panel is in a locked meter room. The condo management told him that they wouldn't open the room so we could shut it off without a permit.
I'm a master electrician, but I have my license inactive since I work for someone else. I can't pull a permit.
But with or without a permit, I wouldn't do what I'm about to tell you.
My friend calls a contractor who tells him the job will be $1,700, but if he will let them do it without a permit, it will cost $850. He said okay. Well, I think we all know that some contractors have 2 levels of work, one permitted and one not permitted.
For $850, they took the live feeder off the panel main lugs and taped them up. No electric room access needed. Then they pulled the bus out of the existing Square D can and screwed in a new GE bus with GE breakers. Then they screwed the GE panel cover to the wall.
I'm pissed.
I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Could you have installed two ,thin/twin, or double/double breakers for a couple of lightly loaded circuits, then add a new water heater breaker. (REALLY Cheap alternative).. The wait until a exact replacement guts could be located.

 

[garisilver]

rt66electric, the panel already was full of as many tandem breakers as it could accommodate and I searched all over the internet and locally at the used breaker companies for a good used bus, so it really was new panel time.

 

[kwired]

The cost of obtaining a permit, and waiting around for the inspector to show up can be quite high in some areas.

It probably has more to do with the inconvenience and trouble dealing with the bureaucracy, scheduling, etc. than it does with actual installation compliance. :happysad:

Changing out the guts in an existing panel should not require a permit, since no "upgrade" is taking place --- no more than replacing a bad switch or receptacle should require one.

There is a difference in changing out with identical components, and doing what the installer in the OP did, and there is good reason for a price difference in "with a permit" and "without a permit" in that case. I'm willing to bet the full $850 difference that the outcome is a lot different if going the "with a permit" job.

Thanks for all of the responses. I just want to address a couple of points that were brought up in the replies.
I'm pissed because I feel my friend was taken advantage of. He didn't realize he was going to get a non-conforming job. He sees a panel that works when the installer leaves. Like a lot of people, he probably thought that if it works, it must be okay. I wish he had called me and told me what the contractor proposed to do before he said okay, but he didn't.
The bus wasn't replaced with an exact replacement. It was an obsolete Square D load center from the 70's and parts are not available. That's why I was going to replace the entire panel. If I was just replacing the bus, I would have been able to do it hot, but pulling out a flush mounted can with EMT top and bottom and refitting a new, larger can is just too risky live.
There wasn't any room in the panel to abandon the burnt spaces and relocate the breaker. And all of the legitimate tandem locations already had tandem breakers.
Unfortunately, my friend, not realizing there would be an issue, told the management person what we planned to do.
And, amen to Gold Diggers response. Well put.

I still find it hard to believe your friend did not have even the slightest suspicion of anything wrong with the "without a permit" price, sometimes we need to learn lessons the hard way I guess.

rt66electric, the panel already was full of as many tandem breakers as it could accommodate and I searched all over the internet and locally at the used breaker companies for a good used bus, so it really was new panel time.

I would still rather seen use of spaces not rated for tandem use with a tandem in them compared to what ended up being done. QO line has non-CTL tandem breakers that have no rejection feature that will plug into any space in any QO panel. They are more expensive than the CTL rated tandems, but still would have cost less than the mess your friend ended up with. Next best option (that keeps cost somewhat minimal) would maybe have been to remove a few circuits to make room for a new feeder to another panel and resupply those circuits from the new sub panel.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Thanks for all of the responses. I just want to address a couple of points that were brought up in the replies.
I'm pissed because I feel my friend was taken advantage of. He didn't realize he was going to get a non-conforming job. He sees a panel that works when the installer leaves. Like a lot of people, he probably thought that if it works, it must be okay. I wish he had called me and told me what the contractor proposed to do before he said okay, but he didn't.
The bus wasn't replaced with an exact replacement. It was an obsolete Square D load center from the 70's and parts are not available. That's why I was going to replace the entire panel. If I was just replacing the bus, I would have been able to do it hot, but pulling out a flush mounted can with EMT top and bottom and refitting a new, larger can is just too risky live.
There wasn't any room in the panel to abandon the burnt spaces and relocate the breaker. And all of the legitimate tandem locations already had tandem breakers.
Unfortunately, my friend, not realizing there would be an issue, told the management person what we planned to do.
And, amen to Gold Diggers response. Well put.

Remind him that he is responsible for anything that could happen.