residential wall space

[greenjourneyman]

So our contractor said we need to include the area along a stair rail to the down stairs as wall space for receptical spacing. This common area is C shaped with an area cut out for stairs. There is actual wall space all the way around except for the top landing thus the c shape. He mentioned putting in floor boxes to conform. I could see if the stairs were up against the wall but I can't find anything in the nec regarding stair railings. 210.52 (A)(3) dividers such as bar type counters or railings but that's pretty weak. Is there somthing I'm missing ??? Is this 2014 code? Thanks to any replies! !

 

[George Stolz]

A picture would help but it sounds like wall space.

 

[GoldDigger]

The side walls of the stairway would be wall space in the downstairs room unless the stairs were open.
A railing which divided two floor areas would be wall space. And I think that the only thing that could prevent a railing at the top of a stairway from requiring receptacles would be if the other side was a hallway. Since the receptacles have to be accessible from the upper side your options seem to the floor receptacles or office style surface mount boxes between stair railing poles ( the kind with the receptacles on the side face.
Maybe mounted on the posts at the four corners if they are close enough?

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[Smart $]

.... 210.52 (A)(3) dividers such as bar type counters or railings but that's pretty weak. Is there somthing I'm missing ???...

Don't forget, the first qualifier is that it be a room divider... and not just any railing. IMO the room is just larger than the usable floor space, assuming we a talking the upper floor associated with the stairway.

As noted, a picture would be helpful. You also mentioned "This common area". Can it fit the definition of a hallway? Perhaps, second floor of a foyer?

 

[greenjourneyman]

the sketch

the sketch

Its an office type room

 

[dkidd]

Is it a residence?

 

[david luchini]

Is it a residence?

The thread title "Residential Wall Space" might offer a clue on that.:slaphead:

 

[Smart $]

Its an office type room

JMO... The railing is not a room divider. That is, it's not there to separate an open area into two distinctly different areas.

 

[mjf]

What are the dimensions of the "room"?

 

[Ponchik]

IF this is a dwelling installation, IMO, the railing that faces the larger portion of the room needs receptacles.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Its an office type room

All AHJs in central Ohio would consider it wall space.

 

[mwm1752]

If this is somewhat dimensional -- One side appear to be a pathway similar to a hallway looks ok -- top of the landing area to door needs recepts -- Could go either way on recepts in larger room, but code would more than likely require min spacing to pathway area -- Is there a furniture layout plan?

 

[charlie b]

JMO... The railing is not a room divider. That is, it's not there to separate an open area into two distinctly different areas.

I agree. The fact that there is a railing does not matter, if the railing is not a room divider. The words in the code use "railings" as an example of the types of "room dividers" that would count as wall space. That is not the same thing as saying any and all railings are room dividers, or that any and all railings count as wall space. Think of it in the same manner as saying all cats are animals, and trying to infer from that statement that all animals are cats.

 

[GoldDigger]

Just to confuse it more, either the railing divides the room from the stairway or it is simply the boundary of the room.
In this case it is arguably a place where one might want to place a chair, table, or lamp.
On the other hand, the railing around a porch does not even form the boundary of a "room".

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[Ponchik]

I agree. The fact that there is a railing does not matter, if the railing is not a room divider. The words in the code use "railings" as an example of the types of "room dividers" that would count as wall space. That is not the same thing as saying any and all railings are room dividers, or that any and all railings count as wall space. Think of it in the same manner as saying all cats are animals, and trying to infer from that statement that all animals are cats.

JMO... The railing is not a room divider. That is, it's not there to separate an open area into two distinctly different areas.

If this installation is a dwelling, and that is a pony wall or a full height wall instead of a railing?

 

[Smart $]

If this installation is a dwelling, and that is a pony wall or a full height wall instead of a railing?

The highlighted part changes the condition.

 

[jxofaltrds]

(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall
include the following:
(1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including
space measured around corners) and unbroken along
the floor line by doorways and similar openings, fireplaces,
and fixed cabinets

Is the railing:

A doorway - no

A similar opening - no

A fireplace - no

A fixed cabinet - no

Only thing left is wall space. The railing is used in lieu of a solid wall.

Now is it a hallway or is it habitable space?

 

[Smart $]

... The railing is used in lieu of a solid wall.

...

In lieu of a wall... so not a wall. :slaphead:

Also not automatically a room divider.

 

[jxofaltrds]

In lieu of a wall... so not a wall. :slaphead:

Also not automatically a room divider.

Correct. It is a story divider. :happyno:

Humor me. Start on an outside wall. Can we agree that the exterior 'wall' is a wall?

Now move around that wall till you find an opening. Let's say the first opening is the stairs. Everything to that point is considered a wall.

Now if you come to the railing first, not an opening, you still have wall space.

 

[Smart $]

Correct. It is a story divider. :happyno:

Humor me. Start on an outside wall. Can we agree that the exterior 'wall' is a wall?

Now move around that wall till you find an opening. Let's say the first opening is the stairs. Everything to that point is considered a wall.

Now if you come to the railing first, not an opening, you still have wall space.

Take a stairway opening in the floor, in the middle of a room, and close the opening in the floor. The railing would likely be removed. So not a wall and not a room divider.

Now if you have a stairway opening in the floor, against a wall of the room. A railing is required towards the room interior. Still neither a wall nor a room divider. Should the required wall receptacles be put in the wall on the far side of the stairway, or in the floor beside the railing?