jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
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- ESI, PI, RBO
Changing changes the rules.
If I add a door between two receptacles 12' apart do I have to add a receptacle? Maybe, maybe not.
Where is room divider in the code?
residential wall space
- Thread starter greenjourneyman
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Changing changes the rules.
If I add a door between two receptacles 12' apart do I have to add a receptacle? Maybe, maybe not.
Where is room divider in the code?
Not changing the rules, just changing the conditions to discuss purpose and intent.
210.52(A)(2)(3)
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
TY. Dividers.
(3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers, such as
freestanding bar-type counters or railings
Wait what's that part in blue?:blink:
mjf
Senior Member
What exactly IS a bar-type railing?:lol:
Actually....MAYBE a bar type railing would be found DIVIDING parts of a room (bar/dance floor)....and is not a (don't fall over the edge) safety device??
Last edited:
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Something like the railing in...
http://www.google.com/imgres?sa=X&e...BwwCg&iact=rc&dur=1451&page=1&start=0&ndsp=24
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
In that case, since there is a room on either side, those two railing/dividers each need at least one receptacle outlet on each room side. Or maybe a pendant cord over the posts.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
I don't need to know or care about the part in blue. I don't have to read that far. As soon as I get to the part in red, I can stop reading. We don't have a room divider, so the rest of the rule is irrelevant.
greenjourneyman
Member
- Location
- montana
got it thanks
got it thanks
I think I get the just of it. The rail doesn't "divide the room" therefor no receps required by code. Not to open another can of worms but even if you put a floor box in as mentioned by someone. They don't count in the count lol... whew. Thanks again.
got it thanks
I think I get the just of it. The rail doesn't "divide the room" therefor no receps required by code. Not to open another can of worms but even if you put a floor box in as mentioned by someone. They don't count in the count lol... whew. Thanks again.
mwm1752
Senior Member
- Location
- Aspen, Colo
So is a room defined on its purpose? If so a kitchen pennisula is the dividing line to the dining/livingroom -- different wiring methods in either area apply -- a railing is a required gaurd dividng the stairwell from the room -- Some of the post insinuate the dividing concept is that you cannot access the other area in which I disagree -- If you want to say the wall line is changed by replacing the railing with a 2x4 36" wall so be it but the its purpose is still as a gaurd rail. General recept locations are mean to be placed for convienent use.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Receptacles are required. We use floor receptacles all the time to satisfy this requirement.
(3) Floor Receptacles. Receptacle outlets in floors shall
not be counted as part of the required number of receptacle
outlets unless located within 450 mm (18 in.) of the wall.
Please note that railings are not exempt.
(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall
include the following:
This just shows other examples of what a wall could be.
We call the railing a 'wall' because it divides two spaces. Stairs and "or area of
dwelling units,"
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Mike, I continue to disagree. The essence of the issue is whether the railing constitutes a fixed room divider. I say that it does not, because it does not divide a room, and it does not separate two rooms from each other.
The question of what is, and what is not a ?wall? is meaningless. What is at issue is what constitutes ?wall space,? in the context of 210.52(A)(2).
We don?t call it a wall. We call it a railing. And it does not divide two spaces. It acts as a safety barrier between levels.
The code says that fixed room dividers shall count as ?wall space.? It then gives two examples of what could serve as fixed room dividers. A railing can do that job. But that does not imply that every railing does, in fact, do that job. Some animals are cats, but not all animals are cats. Some railings are fixed room dividers, but not all railings are fixed room dividers.
mwm1752
Senior Member
- Location
- Aspen, Colo
So, some railings count as wall space
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
That is true.
We are arguing one example.
A room divider does not mean that you divide a room. It divides 'rooms' or areas.
Again wall spaces is NOT limited to the examples. Says "include" not limited to.
(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall
include the following:
A railing can be "wall space". That does not mean the it is a wall in the truest sense of the word. What if it was drywall?
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
"Space created by fixed room dividers, such as freestanding bar-type counter or railings, is considered wall space for the purpose of applying these receptacle outlet requirements at dwelling units. Railings create wall spaces where electrical appliances such as televisions, stereos or luminaires are commonly located. Floor receptacles are a common solution for railings and banister locations where receptacle outlets are required to be placed [NEC210.52(A)(3)]."
From:
http://www.iaei.org/blogpost/890108/158695/Dwelling-Units--No-Big-Deal-Right
From:
http://www.iaei.org/blogpost/890108/158695/Dwelling-Units--No-Big-Deal-Right
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
More food for thought: If the railing simply surrounded a skylight/atrium type opening to the floor below rather than surrounding a staircase, I would say that it created wall space just as a peninsula or free standing counter would.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
More food for thought: If the railing simply surrounded a skylight/atrium type opening to the floor below rather than surrounding a staircase, I would say that it created wall space just as a peninsula or free standing counter would.
By including bannister, the comment in the link certainly presumes that that writer thought that staircases came into play too. Most cases where a bannister guards a drop to the floor below are found in upstairs hallways, which allows avoiding the receptacle requirements on that side.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Agreed.
I'll agree with this interpretation... to a degree.
Let's see if you can pick out which. Simply answer yes for recept's req'd or no if not req'd...
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
Photos 1 and 5 are not showing up for me.
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