residential wall space

[charlie b]

So to divide a room you wall has to be floor to ceiling with a door?

I did not say that, and I would not agree with that. To qualify as ?wall space,? a railing would have to comprise a ?fixed room divider.? That brings us to,

Define fix room divider per code

The code doesn?t give us that definition. So we are left to use whatever the English language or standard industry usage have to offer. To me, a ?fixed room divider? would have to either divide a space into two rooms, or at least into two or more distinct areas of the same room, or it would have to separate one room from another. A safety barrier between floor levels does neither of those things. That is why I do not consider it to be ?wall space,? in the context of 210.52(A).

So, some railings count as wall space

I said so, and I meant it. My point, however, was more along the lines of ?some don?t.? Show me a dining room and a living room with a 4 foot high railing between them, and I will call the railing ?wall space,? and require receptacles. Show me a second floor overlook with a four foot railing to prevent someone falling from the second floor to the first floor, and I will not call it ?wall space,? and I would not require receptacles.

 

[jxofaltrds]

1 yes
2 yes
3 yes
4 hall side no
4 room side yes
5 short yes
5 long maybe
6 yes
7 yes
8 maybe

 

[mjf]

I did not say that, and I would not agree with that. To qualify as ?wall space,? a railing would have to comprise a ?fixed room divider.? That brings us to, The code doesn?t give us that definition. So we are left to use whatever the English language or standard industry usage have to offer. To me, a ?fixed room divider? would have to either divide a space into two rooms, or at least into two or more distinct areas of the same room, or it would have to separate one room from another. A safety barrier between floor levels does neither of those things. That is why I do not consider it to be ?wall space,? in the context of 210.52(A).
I said so, and I meant it. My point, however, was more along the lines of ?some don?t.? Show me a dining room and a living room with a 4 foot high railing between them, and I will call the railing ?wall space,? and require receptacles. Show me a second floor overlook with a four foot railing to prevent someone falling from the second floor to the first floor, and I will not call it ?wall space,? and I would not require receptacles.

I mostly agree. As far as the overlook goes, I believe it depends on the width of the area. If it's "useable" space I believe it requires receptacles. If it's really only a hallway than it does not. That's why I requested the OP's room dimensions many posts ago.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I mostly agree. As far as the overlook goes, I believe it depends on the width of the area. If it's "useable" space I believe it requires receptacles. If it's really only a hallway than it does not. That's why I requested the OP's room dimensions many posts ago.

We can't agree on a wall space. Start a new thread on "useable".

Could apply to a hallway.

(H) Hallways. In dwelling units, hallways of 3.0 m (10 ft)
or more in length shall have at least one receptacle outlet.
As used in this subsection, the hallway length shall be
considered the length along the centerline of the hallway
without passing through a doorway.

(I) Foyers. Foyers that are not part of a hallway in accordance
with 210.52(H) and that have an area that is greater
than 5.6 m2 (60 ft2) shall have a receptacle(s) located in
each wall space 900 mm (3 ft) or more in width and unbroken
by doorways, floor-to-ceiling windows, and similar
openings.

 

[mjf]

We can't agree on a wall space. Start a new thread on "useable".

Could apply to a hallway.

(H) Hallways. In dwelling units, hallways of 3.0 m (10 ft)
or more in length shall have at least one receptacle outlet.
As used in this subsection, the hallway length shall be
considered the length along the centerline of the hallway
without passing through a doorway.

(I) Foyers. Foyers that are not part of a hallway in accordance
with 210.52(H) and that have an area that is greater
than 5.6 m2 (60 ft2) shall have a receptacle(s) located in
each wall space 900 mm (3 ft) or more in width and unbroken
by doorways, floor-to-ceiling windows, and similar
openings.

Unfortunately, the NEC does not specify the maximum width of a residential hallway. If the plans call a 10ft wide by 30 foot long area a hallway....is it a hallway only requiring 1 receptacle outlet?

As far as your comment "Could apply to a hallway"....yes, a receptacle outlet is often required, but that has nothing to do with railings or dividers or all the other fun stuff we've all been hashing out

Please don't start a thread on useable until this thread peters out:lol:

 

[jxofaltrds]

Unfortunately, the NEC does not specify the maximum width of a residential hallway. If the plans call a 10ft wide by 30 foot long area a hallway....is it a hallway only requiring 1 receptacle outlet?

Could have 3 if the hallway was broken by 2 doorways.

As far as your comment "Could apply to a hallway"....yes, a receptacle outlet is often required, but that has nothing to do with railings or dividers or all the other fun stuff we've all been hashing out

Railings, dividers and 'walls' sometimes make it a hallway. Other wise it maybe part of a room and have (A) apply.

Please don't start a thread on useable until this thread peters out:lol:

"If it's "useable" space I believe it requires receptacles"

 

[Sierrasparky]

We always placed outlets in those areas . If they were not on the plan I would try to get an extra.

 

[GoldDigger]

Could have 3 if the hallway was broken by 2 doorways.

For a hallway to be "broken" by two doorways in the sense of the rule on hallways, I think one would have to pass through the doorways to continue down the hallway. JMHO.



Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

 

[mjf]

For a hallway to be "broken" by two doorways in the sense of the rule on hallways, I think one would have to pass through the doorways to continue down the hallway. JMHO.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

I agree:

(H) Hallways. In dwelling units, hallways of 3.0 m (10 ft)
or more in length shall have at least one receptacle outlet.
As used in this subsection, the hallway length shall be
considered the length along the centerline of the hallway
without passing through a doorway.

 

[Ponchik]

Smart$,

In pictures 2,3,4 & Maybe 8 , if the railings were a 2x4 pony or full height wall, would you require receptacle or not?

 

[Smart $]

Photos 1 and 5 are not showing up for me.

Here's the links to all 8...

1.
http://www.blackmountainiron.com/images/IndoorRails/earth-leaf-on-site.jpg






2.
http://homerefurbers.com/assets/widgets/project/404.jpg




3.
http://www.robgerdin.com/images/gallery/gl_37_sm.jpg




4.
http://images-95.har.com/e1/MediaDisplay/95/hr3050095-6.jpg




5.
http://www.blackmountainiron.com/images/IndoorRails/GrapMotifRailing.JPG




6.
http://st.houzz.com/fimgs/5222bbf501ff3a24_1076-w503-h376-b0-p0--home-design.jpg




7.
http://lollyjane.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Inexpensive-Molding-Pretty-Home-Yellow-Ottoman-7.jpg




8.
http://www.tmmill.com/Northern Michigan home/images/upstairs banisters.jpg

 

[GoldDigger]

Here's the links to all 8...

Thanks!
They all show up on my computer but those two would not work on my phone for some reason.
A nice assortment of test vectors, BTW.

 

[Smart $]

1 yes no
2 yes no upper side, yes lower side
3 yes no upper side, yes lower side
4 hall side no no
4 room side yes maybe
5 short yes no
5 long maybe no
6 yes yes
7 yes yes
8 maybe no

In your consideration of my answers, also take into consideration that 210.52(A)(2(1) says in part "unbroken along the floor line by doorways and similar openings, fireplaces, and fixed cabinets". Open-type railings, even when considered a room divider, are broken along the floor line.

 

[mjf]

Unfortunately, the NEC does not specify the maximum width of a residential hallway. If the plans call a 10ft wide by 30 foot long area a hallway....is it a hallway only requiring 1 receptacle outlet?

Could have 3 if the hallway was broken by 2 doorways

Could have none required.:thumbsup:

9'-11" hallway to first doorway, 4" wide (framing and drywall) doorway, 9'-11" hallway to second doorway, 4" wide doorway, 9'-6" left to make the total length of 30' :angel:

 

[GoldDigger]

Could have none required.:thumbsup:

9'-11" hallway to first doorway, 4" wide (framing and drywall) doorway, 9'-11" hallway to second doorway, 4" wide doorway, 9'-6" left to make the total length of 30' :angel:

If the hallway was 10 feet wide,as originally suggested, those are either really big doors or the hallways are just really small bedrooms that you walk through to get to the next one.
I don't think that we would normally call such a thing one hallway unless the doorways were just there for fire doors or similar that would normally be wide open.

I have seen old single family houses converted to multiple apartments that had occasional hallways like that though. They also turned corners a lot.

 

[Smart $]

Smart$,

In pictures 2,3,4 & Maybe 8 , if the railings were a 2x4 pony or full height wall, would you require receptacle or not?

If a railing is essentially built same as normal wall construction, then yes it is wall space.

There's no such thing as a full height wall-type railing. That would be a wall, outright.

 

[greenjourneyman]

still here

still here

I tried sending better pics many posts ago but failed technically. I couldn't keep up with the posts at work so didn't take exact measurements. Sounds like the next code cycle needs to expand on this and may add some definitions. Probably have the AHJ decide but would still like a reference able resolution for future. Thanks for all feed back I'm only 5th year can't get pics on for some reason

 

[mjf]

If a railing is essentially built same as normal wall construction, then yes it is wall space.

There's no such thing as a full height wall-type railing. That would be a wall, outright.

Sounds like a jail cell to me:jawdrop:.......and no receptacle is required!!!!!:angel:

 

[greenjourneyman]

still here

still here

I tried sending better pics many posts ago but failed technically. I couldn't keep up with the posts at work so didn't take exact measurements. Sounds like the next code cycle needs to expand on this and may add some definitions. Probably have the AHJ decide but would still like a reference able resolution for future. Thanks for all feed back I'm only 5th year

 

[ritelec]

Sounds like a jail cell to me:jawdrop:.......and no receptacle is required!!!!!:angel:

Where in the good book is the exception for jail cells?

Would need some place to plug a computer, tv, or lava lamp into............