Kids injured in a pool

[augie47]

Note the 60 amp breaker on the pump also.

[FONT=&quot]http://www.local10.com/news/police-...that-caused-three-kids-to-be-shocked/25861796[/FONT]

 

[RLyons]

Did the 60a feed a sub? don't see a gfi breaker/recept.

Does anyone else get the feeling the motor was recon'd or replaced? I see the screw missing on the ground and I have never seen one painted...
Not the mention the liquidtight not threaded in

 

[electrofelon]

the article states that the kids spent several days in the hospital. I have always wondered this: What are the effects or how does one get injured by an electric shock other than burns?

 

[GoldDigger]

You can expect all sorts of damage from oxygen deprivation if the shock interferes with breathing or heart activity.
Also direct nerve damage from the current and muscle or joint injuries from involuntary contractions.

Tapatalk!

 

[Sahib]

For example a man apparently recovering from receiving an electric shock died suddenly due to asphyxia several days later.

 

[kwired]

For example a man apparently recovering from receiving an electric shock died suddenly due to asphyxia several days later.

That does happen, and more often then many realize. I don't know how to tell someone to know just how severe a shock was and if they should seek medical attention, and if there is no obvious external injuries it gets really difficult to make any judgement of how serious the shock may have been, but if any doubt it is a good idea to see a doctor. They can find out a lot just by putting you in observation for a relatively short time - should you blood oxygen levels begin to drop they may just catch something in time, otherwise it will kill you before you even place a connection between the shock event and any such problems.

 

[electrofelon]

That does happen, and more often then many realize. I don't know how to tell someone to know just how severe a shock was and if they should seek medical attention, and if there is no obvious external injuries it gets really difficult to make any judgement of how serious the shock may have been, but if any doubt it is a good idea to see a doctor. They can find out a lot just by putting you in observation for a relatively short time - should you blood oxygen levels begin to drop they may just catch something in time, otherwise it will kill you before you even place a connection between the shock event and any such problems.

interesting. I always assumed if the shock wasnt such that you received burns or went into fibrillation that you are pretty much fine. Does anyone have any statistics of the cases of someone being seemingly fine for hours after then having problems later?

 

[Jon456]

I recently received an electrical shock. I was examining some 480V feeders in an in-ground pull box and I touched the ground water that had filled the conduits. One of the feeders had damaged insulation (which we didn't know about at the time) that electrified the water. I didn't suffer any burns, but my two fingers that touched the water had some stiffness and a sensation of mild cramping. I also felt a little tightness in my chest (may have just been anxiety) and I was sweating mildly (may have just been from the heat and stress). In any case, I looked online and read that one should seek medical treatment for any electrical shock.

I went to the local emergency room and, even though I was ambulatory and showed no external symptoms of any kind, the medical staff seemed to think it was pretty urgent, rushing me immediately into an examination room and before I had even completed any check-in paperwork. They connected me to an EKG monitor, took blood, and administered an IV drip. Apparently, one of the body's organs most susceptible to electrical damage are the kidneys (I'm guessing that it's due to the high concentrations of sodium and potassium electrolytes within them, although I did not ask the doctor about the reason). They also took urine samples to check for blood, and two full chest x-rays.

After several hours of monitoring and a clean bill-of-health based on the labwork, EKG, and X-rays, I was discharged. I asked the ER doctor if I had overreacted by going to the emergency room and she stated, quite emphatically, "NO!" She told me that ANY electrical shock requires immediate medical attention because even a person who presents no symptoms of injury can have life-threatening internal damage.

 

[K8MHZ]

interesting. I always assumed if the shock wasnt such that you received burns or went into fibrillation that you are pretty much fine. Does anyone have any statistics of the cases of someone being seemingly fine for hours after then having problems later?

I don't have any statistics, but in the safety training I have had the after effects of electric shock are covered and the importance of medical examination is stressed.

 

[kwired]

I went to the local emergency room and, even though I was ambulatory and showed no external symptoms of any kind, the medical staff seemed to think it was pretty urgent, rushing me immediately into an examination room and before I had even completed any check-in paperwork. They connected me to an EKG monitor, took blood, and administered an IV drip. Apparently, one of the body's organs most susceptible to electrical damage are the kidneys (I'm guessing that it's due to the high concentrations of sodium and potassium electrolytes within them, although I did not ask the doctor about the reason). They also took urine samples to check for blood, and two full chest x-rays.

After any injury with no external signs of problems they can monitor most of those things you mentioned and catch internal problems you are not aware of before they become too complex and result in really serious care needed.

The skin is tough and can in many cases can take some current with little or no damage, internal organs just start to cook and this kills tissues and compromises those organs. Most people that are shock victims I believe usually have more internal problems then they have with surface burns. Sure there may be some with serious surface burns but their internal injuries are often even more life threatening for the immediate future.

 

[Sahib]

The extent of your internal injury due to an electric shock depends on the state of your nervous system. Any unhealthy state of your nervous system may be aggravated by an electric shock. I think brain imbalance causing such as eye slightly popping out on one side, different blood pressure on either side of the body etc., also spells poor nervous system.

 

[Little Bill]

I would bet the pool didn't have the proper equipotential bonding around it either.

 

[Sahib]

No intentional bonding is required: a ladder bonded to the grid and touching pool water serves the purpose,for example. I think the reason for the shock: a decrease in pool water conductivity due to decrease in pool water purifying chemicals concentration as a result of poor maintanance.

 

[kwired]

I would bet the pool didn't have the proper equipotential bonding around it either.

seems like a possibility.

No intentional bonding is required: a ladder bonded to the grid and touching pool water serves the purpose,for example. I think the reason for the shock: a decrease in pool water conductivity due to decrease in pool water purifying chemicals concentration as a result of poor maintanance.

Doesn't seem like that great of a possibility.

A decrease in water conductivity would make larger sphere of influence and larger "voltage shells" around grounded objects and/or an energized object. Larger voltage shells means you must reach farther to touch two different points of potential then you would for smaller shells.

 

[Fulthrotl]

interesting. I always assumed if the shock wasnt such that you received burns or went into fibrillation that you are pretty much fine. Does anyone have any statistics of the cases of someone being seemingly fine for hours after then having problems later?

i got hit pretty badly with 120 a few years back... tripped a 20 amp lighting circuit
without shorting to ground, arm to arm.

one of the latent problems with electric shock is it will cause a release of
potassium in the blood stream, i was told. someone gets a bad shock,
and a few hours later, has a heart attack 'cause the blood chemistry gets
all screwed up.

dunno about statistics, but if you get shocked badly, go get some blood work
and an ekg and eeg to look for error codes in your control systems.

bad shock... tasting copper afterwards. in my case, it turne the entrance and
exit points deeply discolored, no burning.

 

[Sahib]

kwired:
The potential gradient that appears in the pool water, when there is a fault current through it, would be too weak to give a shock if the conductivity of water is suffiently high (due to addition of water purifying chemicals). But if the conductivity of water becomes low enough, the potential gradient becomes strong to give a shock. So it appears to me that electrically speaking,the water conductivity is the deciding factor between 'safe' or 'unsafe' pool.

 

[GoldDigger]

If you are looking at a situation of a constant, limited leakage current then your argument has some merit.
But I think that the more common situation is that a constant fault voltage us applied, with the current limited by the resistance if the water. In those cases the higher conductivity will produce a higher current and will exhibit the higher potential gradient in the area of the electrodes involved. This reduces the volume around the electrodes where there is a hazard but correspondingly increases the risk of fatal shock when you enter those regions.

Tapatalk!

 

[Sahib]

If you take a copper conductor wire and a nichrome resistor wire of one metre length and equal cross section, to produce equal voltage drop the copper wire will require a current flow many times that of the nichrome wire. Such is the effect of conductivity on potential gradient!

 

[kwired]

If you take a copper conductor wire and a nichrome resistor wire of one metre length and equal cross section, to produce equal voltage drop the copper wire will require a current flow many times that of the nichrome wire. Such is the effect of conductivity on potential gradient!

Maybe true, but if you create large "voltage shells" in the water (which is exactly what we are trying to do when we install an equipotential bonding system) it becomes difficult for a user of the pool to contact two points of potential.

What is voltage drop halfway across each length of conductor in your examples? That is what shocks people in the pool. It is easier to contact two points of potential if they are close to one another then if they are far apart. The lower resistance material will have longer distance before voltage drop is same as it is in the higher resistance material.

 

[Sahib]

Maybe true, but if you create large "voltage shells" in the water (which is exactly what we are trying to do when we install an equipotential bonding system) it becomes difficult for a user of the pool to contact two points of potential.

Just the pool ladder in water and bonded to grid is enough per code. So for given fault current through pool, which does not change appreciably with change in pool water conductivity, the potential gradient in water depends on its conductivity.

What is voltage drop halfway across each length of conductor in your examples? That is what shocks people in the pool. It is easier to contact two points of potential if they are close to one another then if they are far apart. The lower resistance material will have longer distance before voltage drop is same as it is in the higher resistance material.

A real test or a computer computer simulation may help clarify the issue.