'Other Than Dwelling Units'

[mprhd7]

Greetings to all, I am an instructor at an electrical trade school in Southern California and preparing to start teaching from the 2014 NEC Code Book.
We have a question in regards to Article 210.8 GFCI's.
Question: what is meant by 'Other Than Dwelling Units'? There doesn't seem to be a clear definition in the code book for this section.

Article 210.8 (D), (newly added), seems to contradict the statement of Article 210.8 (B), 'Other Than Dwelling Units'. as it states, .......outlets that supply dishwashers installed in dwelling unit locations.

Please Advise.....

 

[Sierrasparky]

Welcome to the Forum!

First of all you state that you are teaching a trade school class the 2014 NEC? If this school is to prepare students for work as Electricians in CA you are teaching the wrong code!

CA has just started using the Calif Electric code (CEC) which is based on the 2011 NEC. There are some differences. Ca does make changes. Then there is the issue that CA will not adopt a new code until probably 2017.r No Jurisdiction in this state can use any other code. It would be improper to teach students a code we do not use. It will only create problems. It is bad enough that Federal projects may use a older code.

In that case the question is irrelevant at this time. Things might change by 2017,

 

[electrofelon]

I havent checked the errata, but I think that is an error, it makes no sense. Cut and paste it into 210.8(A)(11)

 

[Little Bill]

Welcome to the Forum!

First of all you state that you are teaching a trade school class the 2014 NEC? If this school is to prepare students for work as Electricians in CA you are teaching the wrong code!

CA has just started using the Calif Electric code (CEC) which is based on the 2011 NEC. There are some differences. Ca does make changes. Then there is the issue that CA will not adopt a new code until probably 2017.r No Jurisdiction in this state can use any other code. It would be improper to teach students a code we do not use. It will only create problems. It is bad enough that Federal projects may use a older code.

In that case the question is irrelevant at this time. Things might change by 2017,

Maybe the OP doesn't have a choice on the curriculum.
Either way, he asked a question concerning the code and this was not an answer to his question.:happyno:

I don't have a 2014 as we're still on the 08. But "other than dwelling units" means just what it says. Any place that isn't a dwelling. I can't answer to your supposedly found discrepancy for sure, but if 210.8(B) is for "other than dwelling units" (D) may be another location or topic that isn't about "other than dwelling units".

 

[Sierrasparky]

Maybe the OP doesn't have a choice on the curriculum.
Either way, he asked a question concerning the code and this was not an answer to his question.:happyno:

I don't have a 2014 as we're still on the 08. But "other than dwelling units" means just what it says. Any place that isn't a dwelling. I can't answer to your supposedly found discrepancy for sure, but if 210.8(B) is for "other than dwelling units" (D) may be another location or topic that isn't about "other than dwelling units".

Well I would hate to be the poor sole who takes the class thinking he is getting the correct information when he is not. Being in the Business for as long as I have. The only reason to know the new code is to do so during the public input state other wise it is nothing more than confusion.

 

[electrofelon]

For those who dont have the '14 yet (I just got mine last week), it goes like this:

(A) Dwelling units....
(B)Other than dwelling units.....
(C)Boat hoists......
(D) Kitchen dishwasher branch circuit. GFCI protection shall be provided for outlets the supply dishwashers installed in dwelling unit locations.

Oh interesting, I just spotted another error in the heading:

210.8 GFCI Protection for personnel......be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (C)

Looks like its not required for the dish then

 

[ActionDave]

....
Question: what is meant by 'Other Than Dwelling Units'? There doesn't seem to be a clear definition in the code book for this section.
.

There is are definitions for dwelling units, so anything outside of those is an Other Than Dwelling Unit.

 

[Little Bill]

For those who dont have the '14 yet (I just got mine last week), it goes like this:

(A) Dwelling units....
(B)Other than dwelling units.....
(C)Boat hoists......
(D) Kitchen dishwasher branch circuit. GFCI protection shall be provided for outlets the supply dishwashers installed in dwelling unit locations.

Oh interesting, I just spotted another error in the heading:



Looks like its not required for the dish then

Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks like it is as I suggested.
(B) is "other than dwelling units"
(D) is a different subject/location
Just like (A) is different than (C)

Now if the dishwasher topic had been under (B) then I would agree it wouldn't make sense.

 

[electrofelon]

Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks like it is as I suggested.
(B) is "other than dwelling units"
(D) is a different subject/location
Just like (A) is different than (C)

Now if the dishwasher topic had been under (B) then I would agree it wouldn't make sense.

There shouldnt be a (D), that requirement should be within (A). As to the OP, I actuallly dont quite understand his question - the new (D) is not within (B) but it should be within (A) like I said

 

[mgookin]

OP could very well be an instructor at a national school which uses the same cirriculum at every campus. To say he shouldn't be teaching the NEC 2014 is not indicated. Just because you go to school at MIT does not mean you won't be doing work in Montana.

 

[Smart $]

...
Oh interesting, I just spotted another error in the heading:

210.8 GFCI Protection for personnel......be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (C)

Looks like its not required for the dish then

The only access I have right now is the Public Input version... and it says 210.8(A) through (D).


(D) should have been a listed item under (A)... but it what it is (until its not). It is still a requirement and doesn't matter that it's not listed under (A).

 

[Sierrasparky]

OP could very well be an instructor at a national school which uses the same cirriculum at every campus. To say he shouldn't be teaching the NEC 2014 is not indicated. Just because you go to school at MIT does not mean you won't be doing work in Montana.

I beg to differ. If the school is most likely in Southern CA it is for students to work in CA.
If not then the students need to know that the info will be wrong and MAYBE used in the future. I emphisize MAYBE
I have recently been taking some continueing ED clasess ( not Required) the biggest problem in these classes are the lack of consistency over the current codes. I was not alone with this issue in the class. I did not speak out however there were two other loud voices that did. They said " What am I to tell my boss when I don't pass because you are teaching incorrect information"

 

[don_resqcapt19]

There shouldnt be a (D), that requirement should be within (A). As to the OP, I actuallly dont quite understand his question - the new (D) is not within (B) but it should be within (A) like I said

It can't be part of (A) as that section only applies to receptacle outlets. The dishwasher GFCI rule applies to any outlet that supplies a dishwasher.

The same applies to (C). (A) & (B) only apply to receptacle outlets. (C)&(D) apply to any type of outlet that supplies the specified equipment. In addition (C) & (D) apply to voltages and current ratings other than "125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere" (C) & (D) also would apply to other than single phase circuits, although three phase circuits are rare in dwelling units.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
Question: what is meant by 'Other Than Dwelling Units'? There doesn't seem to be a clear definition in the code book for this section.

Dwelling unit is a term that is defined in Article 100. If the structure in question is not a dwelling unit as defined in Article 100, then it is "other than a dwelling unit".

Article 210.8 (D), (newly added), seems to contradict the statement of Article 210.8 (B), 'Other Than Dwelling Units'. as it states, .......outlets that supply dishwashers installed in dwelling unit locations.

Please Advise.....

I don't see any conflict here.

 

[102 Inspector]

Unfortunately, incorrect information extends to many portions of the country. Currently, my jurisdiction is under 2008 NEC but some of the electrician are questioning the language in more recent codes. As a local inspector, I am legally required to enforce the edition adopted by the state. If they choose to use a newer edition of the code cycle, that might conflict with the legally adopted version, than a variance through the state would be required. Some of the classes I have taken for certification is based on the most recent code, but I am still enforcing an older version. It is my responsibility to know which is the legal version. trust me, it gets difficult sometimes when newer un-adopted version make more sense. But sometimes the older versions do too!!!

 

[kwired]

There shouldnt be a (D), that requirement should be within (A). As to the OP, I actuallly dont quite understand his question - the new (D) is not within (B) but it should be within (A) like I said

For those who dont have the '14 yet (I just got mine last week), it goes like this:

(A) Dwelling units....
(B)Other than dwelling units.....
(C)Boat hoists......
(D) Kitchen dishwasher branch circuit. GFCI protection shall be provided for outlets the supply dishwashers installed in dwelling unit locations.

Oh interesting, I just spotted another error in the heading:

210.8 GFCI Protection for personnel......be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (C)

Looks like its not required for the dish then

Must have been an error - my E-book version of 2014 says (A) through (D) -

I thought I understood the GFCI requirement for dishwashers came about primarily because of some end of life failures of certain units. I've said it before and will say it again - this should be a product issue and not a code issue - CPSC should demand a recall all those potentially bad units instead they gave the manufacturers a break and you can just about bet which groups were behind the change.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Ya'll can download an NFPA copy of the 2014 NEC Errata by clicking here.

The very first item on the list is that the opening sentence for 210.8 should have a "D" instead of the printed "C".

I agree with Don that the requirement in 210.8(D) is a stand alone requirement, as it is written, to cover the dishwasher "outlet," rather than the very specific (and limiting) dishwasher "receptacle outlet."

Since (D) stands alone, and, in its language, specifies that it is FOR dwelling unit kitchens, then it clearly excludes "other than dwelling units."

 

[electrofelon]

It can't be part of (A) as that section only applies to receptacle outlets. The dishwasher GFCI rule applies to any outlet that supplies a dishwasher.

Got it, missed that detail.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Ok maybe I see things differently.
The way I see it section B refers to the listed sections:
1 bathrooms
2 Kitchens
3 rooftops
4 outdoors

Where referred as kitchens it would mean a kitchen in a office , or a restaraunt, catering hall.....

So in these kitchens ALL receptacles 125v would require GFCI

 

[Smart $]

It can't be part of (A) as that section only applies to receptacle outlets. The dishwasher GFCI rule applies to any outlet that supplies a dishwasher.

The problem I see with that is the subsection title is Dwelling Units... it is not Dwelling Unit Receptacles.

(A) should be broken down into two subheadings: receptacles and other outlets.