Dishwashers and disposal 2014 code

Status
Not open for further replies.
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
kwired said:
Those examples are all accessible, but likely are not "readily accessible". GFCI's must be "readily accessible".
Click to expand...

You are absolutely correct, I was wrong in the post ahead of yours.:ashamed1:

210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for
Personnel. Ground-fault circuit-interruption for personnel
shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (C). The
ground-fault circuit-interrupter shall be installed in a
readily accessible location.
Click to expand...



I knew jrannis had the wrong definition but so did I.

Here is the correct one.


Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being
reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections
without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite
to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable
ladders, and so forth.
Click to expand...
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
edlee said:
I don't agree that a GFI device under a sink is not readily accessible. Move the soap and crap and it's right there. You don't have to unlock anything, climb over anything, or bring a ladder.
Click to expand...

iwire said:
You are absolutely correct, I was wrong in the post ahead of yours.:ashamed1:





I knew jrannis had the wrong definition but so did I.

Here is the correct one.


Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being
reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections
without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite
to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable

ladders, and so forth.
Click to expand...
And with that definition right there "the soap and crap" is an obstacle that may need removed to gain access - the reason under the sink is normally interpreted as not readily accessible.

I do think there needs to be some work done on clarifying what readily accessible means. This readily accessible GFCI can still have a panel door as an obstacle for access to a GFCI circuit breaker and disregard that as disqualifying it as readily accessible, or worse yet a panel cover with a lock on it or access to the panel location is restricted in some way.
 
tom baker

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Bremerton, Washington
dledinger said:
I have a heck of time wrapping my head around this too.


If you're using a dead front to meet the requirement for GFCI protection on a hardwired dishwasher, make sure its marked to serve as a disconnecting means.


Dan
Click to expand...

A GFCI does not meet code requirement for a disconnecting means, see the requirement in Art 110
 
W

Wenty4

Member
Location
Raymond, NH, USA
Dishwashers and disposals 2014 code

Dishwashers and disposals 2014 code

In response to dledinger, I am posing this question which is a little off track but I feel pertinent; "your front porch light switch an a habitable room requires AFCI protection (I agree), but, what about the emergency switch for an oil fired furnace/boiler outside the cellar stairs -- AFCI protection?
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Wenty4 said:
In response to dledinger, I am posing this question which is a little off track but I feel pertinent; "your front porch light switch an a habitable room requires AFCI protection (I agree), but, what about the emergency switch for an oil fired furnace/boiler outside the cellar stairs -- AFCI protection?
Click to expand...
yes. Only exception to 210.12 deals with fire alarms, and even then it must meet certain criteria before it is exempt.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
tom baker said:
A GFCI does not meet code requirement for a disconnecting means, see the requirement in Art 110
Click to expand...

110.3(B)?

I don't see anything else in 110 that would otherwise give us requirements for design/construction details of a disconnecting means.

What about GFCI type circuit breakers? They are used for disconnecting means quite often for things like Spa's.
 
M

macmikeman

Senior Member
Location
Planet macmikeman
Are there any electricians on the CMP'S anymore? Where I am at we are still on the 08. After reading this thread all the way thru and with no real clue as to whether there are or not, (I know there used to be some..), my first guess would probably be no, -- no electricians on the CMP'S any longer. It seems to have gone astray somewhere along the line. Probably the safest thing would be to prohibit garbage disposals and dishwashers altogether , as the geometric volume of new safety precautions has indicated to me that they must be the highest high of unsafe devices ever. Can't put the gfi under the sink, because somebody may have to move a box of soap or brillo pads.................. good Lord.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
macmikeman said:
Are there any electricians on the CMP'S anymore? Where I am at we are still on the 08. After reading this thread all the way thru and with no real clue as to whether there are or not, (I know there used to be some..), my first guess would probably be no, -- no electricians on the CMP'S any longer. It seems to have gone astray somewhere along the line. Probably the safest thing would be to prohibit garbage disposals and dishwashers altogether , as the geometric volume of new safety precautions has indicated to me that they must be the highest high of unsafe devices ever. Can't put the gfi under the sink, because somebody may have to move a box of soap or brillo pads.................. good Lord.
Click to expand...

Copied from front matter in 2014 NEC, CMP 2 would be responsible for art 210 and general AFCI an GFCI requirements:

CODE-MAKING PANEL NO. 2
Articles 210, 215, 220, Annex D, Examples D1 through D6
Mark R. Hilbert, Chair
MR Hilbert Electrical Inspections & Training, NH [E]
Rep. International Association of Electrical Inspectors


Charles L. Boynton, The DuPont Company, Inc., TX
Rep. American Chemistry Council
Frank Coluccio, New York City Department of Buildings, NY [E]
Ronald E. Duren, PacifiCorp, WA [UT]
Rep. Electric Light & Power Group/EEI
Thomas L. Harman, University of Houston-Clear Lake, TX [SE]
Donald M. King, IBEW Local Union 313, DE [L]
Rep. International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers
Robert L. LaRocca, UL LLC, NY [RT]
Steven Orlowski, National Association of Home Builders, DC
Jim Pauley, Square D Company/Schneider Electric, KY [M]
Rep. National Electrical Manufacturers Association
Robert G. Wilkinson, IEC Texas Gulf Coast, TX [IM]
Rep. Independent Electrical Contractors, Inc.
Thomas H. Wood, Cecil B. Wood, Inc., IL [IM]
Rep. National Electrical Contractors Association
Alternates
Jacob G. Benninger, Cornell University, NY [L]
(Alt. to Donald M. King)
Rep. International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers
Lawrence Brown, National Association of Home Builders, DC
(Alt. to Steven Orlowski)
Rep. National Association of Home Builders
David A. Dini, UL LLC, IL [RT]
(Alt. to Robert L. LaRocca)
Daniel J. Kissane, Legrand/Pass & Seymour, NY [M]
(Alt. to Jim Pauley)
Rep. National Electrical Manufacturers Association
William Ross McCorcle, American Electric Power, OK [UT]
(Alt. to Ronald E. Duren)
Rep. Electric Light & Power Group/EEI
William J. McGovern, City of Plano, TX [E]
(Alt. to Mark R. Hilbert)
Rep. International Association of Electrical Inspectors
Stephen J. Thorwegen, Jr., FSG Electric, TX [IM]
(Alt. to Robert G. Wilkinson)
Rep. Independent Electrical Contractors, Inc.
Nonvoting
William Burr, Canadian Standards Association, Canada [RT]
Douglas A. Lee, U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, MD [C]
Andrew M. Trotta, U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, MD [C]
(Alt. to Douglas A. Lee)

Sorry formatting did not copy as well as I would have liked, but is not too hard to read. There is a variety of people from different areas in there, including contractor associations.
 
Last edited:
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
dledinger said:
I figured he was referring to 110.22(A)...but my post was intended to address that.
Click to expand...
I looked at that before posting earlier - doesn't apply.

110.22(A) has no requirement for disconnecting means design/construction, it only states that disconnecting means need to marked in some way to identify what it disconnects or be arranged so that the purpose is evident.

110.25 is only other thing I see in 110 that deals with disconnects, but again doesn't apply to the discussion here it is a different attribute relating to disconnects.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Only GFCIs marked with on and off are allowed as disconnectimg means.

The NEC requires disconnecting means to be indicating.
 
G

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
iwire said:
Only GFCIs marked with on and off are allowed as disconnectimg means.

The NEC requires disconnecting means to be indicating.
Click to expand...
But the indications on the one pictured just show me which button to push. They do not tell me what state it is in unless you assert that it is the state with the button slightly more recessed. I would not depend on that. JMO.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
GoldDigger said:
But the indications on the one pictured just show me which button to push. They do not tell me what state it is in unless you assert that it is the state with the button slightly more recessed. I would not depend on that. JMO.
Click to expand...

I suppose they could somehow incorporate a similar "flag" like the old Pushmatic breakers had to indicate if they were on or off.:cool:
 
frankft2000

frankft2000

Senior Member
Location
Maine
I've seen many instances where the area at the back of a sink cabinet was much easier to reach than the electrical panel. :-0
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top