Atmospheric Composition following a lightning strike

[mgookin]

Background:

Nitrogen makes up about 78.n% of our atmosphere in the form of N2_(g)
Oxygen makes up about 21% of our atmosphere in the form of O2_(g)
All other elements/ compounds are <1% of the atmosphere.
During a lightning strike both Nitrates and Phosphates are created. (free fertilizer!)
Lightning is a necessary component of Earth's biological processes.
Lightning is very common in south Florida. Both frequency and magnitude are intense. (we're used to it though; many including myself enjoy the show).
Nitrate is NO₃^-
Phosphate is PO₄^3-

Recent events:

Last week a bolt of lightning hit 25 feet from where I was sitting on my back porch. It split a tree in half. When it happened I trotted inside. I had 3 panels of sliding doors open (an opening 12' x 6'8" or about 80 sf of building wall opened up). I closed the sliding doors and made way to the kitchen in the center of the building for safety. I felt remarkably "tingly". I felt like I was about to get hit by lightning so I squatted behind the kitchen counter on one foot, then realized I was barefoot on ceramic tile, so I moved to a rug. This sensation lasted around 20-30 seconds.

Yesterday I was having dinner with a friend who was visiting. She's 24. Her sister, 27, and she went shopping earlier in the day. They arrived at a 200,000 sf department store (for comparison, a Wal-Mart is usually around 250,000 sf) during a thunderstorm. This building is single story, slab on grade, concrete tilt panel walls and iron bar joists with corrugated iron roof deck. Power goes out concurrent with a lightning strike as they walk through the front door. It doesn't phase them or anyone else. They buy a pair of sunglasses, then start to walk to the back of the store. Half way there they feel goose bumps. They look at each other and the hair on the head of one of them is standing out as if she has a hand on a Van der graaf generator.

Questions:

Since both nitrates and phosphates are anions (an anion is a molecule with a net negative charge due to having more electrons than protons), does this give the atmosphere a net negative charge immediately after a lightning strike?

Are the nitrates and phosphates in a gaseous state following the lightning strike and free to move with air currents?

What inherent risks accrue due to the presence of the negatively charged atmosphere?

I just thought this would be an interesting and fun discussion for some of the brainiacs on this forum.

Thanks and enjoy!

 

[fmtjfw]

Background:

Nitrogen makes up about 78.n% of our atmosphere in the form of N2_(g)
Oxygen makes up about 21% of our atmosphere in the form of O2_(g)
All other elements/ compounds are <1% of the atmosphere.
During a lightning strike both Nitrates and Phosphates are created. (free fertilizer!)
Lightning is a necessary component of Earth's biological processes.
Lightning is very common in south Florida. Both frequency and magnitude are intense. (we're used to it though; many including myself enjoy the show).
Nitrate is NO₃^-
Phosphate is PO₄^3-

Recent events:

Last week a bolt of lightning hit 25 feet from where I was sitting on my back porch. It split a tree in half. When it happened I trotted inside. I had 3 panels of sliding doors open (an opening 12' x 6'8" or about 80 sf of building wall opened up). I closed the sliding doors and made way to the kitchen in the center of the building for safety. I felt remarkably "tingly". I felt like I was about to get hit by lightning so I squatted behind the kitchen counter on one foot, then realized I was barefoot on ceramic tile, so I moved to a rug. This sensation lasted around 20-30 seconds.

Yesterday I was having dinner with a friend who was visiting. She's 24. Her sister, 27, and she went shopping earlier in the day. They arrived at a 200,000 sf department store (for comparison, a Wal-Mart is usually around 250,000 sf) during a thunderstorm. This building is single story, slab on grade, concrete tilt panel walls and iron bar joists with corrugated iron roof deck. Power goes out concurrent with a lightning strike as they walk through the front door. It doesn't phase them or anyone else. They buy a pair of sunglasses, then start to walk to the back of the store. Half way there they feel goose bumps. They look at each other and the hair on the head of one of them is standing out as if she has a hand on a Van der graaf generator.

Questions:

Since both nitrates and phosphates are anions (an anion is a molecule with a net negative charge due to having more electrons than protons), does this give the atmosphere a net negative charge immediately after a lightning strike?

Are the nitrates and phosphates in a gaseous state following the lightning strike and free to move with air currents?

What inherent risks accrue due to the presence of the negatively charged atmosphere?

I just thought this would be an interesting and fun discussion for some of the brainiacs on this forum.

Thanks and enjoy!

Nitrogen is normally N2 in the atmosphere, it is oxidized to NO2. NO2 is a poison. NO2 is heaver than air and falls. Then if moisture present in combines with the hydrogen and oxygen to produce nitric or nitrous acid HNO2 & HNO3. This acids fall to earth and provide usable nitrogen fertilizer to plants. Raw nitric acid is pretty nasty stuff too.

Some of the O2 oxygen is rearranged to produce O3 or ozone. Ozone is a powerful oxidant.

Gleaned by googling "lightning gas" "ozone" ....

 

[mgookin]

Nitrogen is normally N2 in the atmosphere, it is oxidized to NO2. NO2 is a poison. NO2 is heaver than air and falls. Then if moisture present in combines with the hydrogen and oxygen to produce nitric or nitrous acid HNO2 & HNO3. This acids fall to earth and provide usable nitrogen fertilizer to plants. Raw nitric acid is pretty nasty stuff too.

Some of the O2 oxygen is rearranged to produce O3 or ozone. Ozone is a powerful oxidant.

Gleaned by googling "lightning gas" "ozone" ....

Thanks but this is not about global warming or ozone. It's about the ions in the atmosphere as a product of lightning and what effect that has on the localized atmosphere.

 

[GoldDigger]

Although there may be an excess of negative ions, and that excess may well be perceptible to the body, the overall unbalanced electrical charge will be verrrry small. Otherwise the air would be rapidly rushing away from the site.

 

[fmtjfw]

Lightning produces ozone.

Lightning produces ozone.

Thanks but this is not about global warming or ozone. It's about the ions in the atmosphere as a product of lightning and what effect that has on the localized atmosphere.

Mentioning ozone does not equal a discussion of global warming. Anyway ozone is a byproduct of ionizing air. Ozone is NOT a greenhouse gas. Seemed applicable to a discussion of the effects of lightning and ionization. Low altitude ozone is a problem, contributes to formation of smog. Breathing ozone is not a good idea, it is a strong oxidant and not good for long term lung function.

High altitude ozone is good in that it increases the UV filtering of the atmosphere.

 

[mike_kilroy]

Mentioning ozone does not equal a discussion of global warming. Anyway ozone is a byproduct of ionizing air. ..... Breathing ozone is not a good idea, it is a strong oxidant and not good for long term lung function....

I totally agree this fits with the discussion - what inherent risks was asked.... I think this statement is right on target!

EPA has weighed in too:

http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html

they discuss health issues of ozone from the negatively ionized air (from air cleaners but same stuff you asked about)

 

[mgookin]

Although there may be an excess of negative ions, and that excess may well be perceptible to the body, the overall unbalanced electrical charge will be verrrry small. Otherwise the air would be rapidly rushing away from the site.

Thanks digger. That's what I was asking about - the electrical aspect of it.

 

[iwire]

We must ban lightning.

 

[Curious nerd]

As above but a little more detail

As above but a little more detail

For every negatively charged NO3- ion there's a corresponding positive ion, which I'd expect to be a hydrogen ion from a former water molecule.

The tingly and static-charge sensations sound more like a charge buildup on the buildings. The store is odd, though. Shouldn't that be a concrete floor with grounded rebar? There might have been a large charge concentration on the ground, though.

"Free fertilizer": you're not kidding. Lightning is a significant contributor to fixing nitrogen.

 

[gadfly56]

Nitrogen is normally N2 in the atmosphere, it is oxidized to NO2. NO2 is a poison. NO2 is heaver than air and falls. Then if moisture present in combines with the hydrogen and oxygen to produce nitric or nitrous acid HNO2 & HNO3. This acids fall to earth and provide usable nitrogen fertilizer to plants. Raw nitric acid is pretty nasty stuff too.

Some of the O2 oxygen is rearranged to produce O3 or ozone. Ozone is a powerful oxidant.

Gleaned by googling "lightning gas" "ozone" ....

This is a common misconception. If NO2 is confined in bulk, as in a balloon, the entire structure has negative bouyancy relative to the bulk atmosphere. Likewise, if there is a large volume released into a natural depression such as a valley or hollow it will behave as a bulk stream. See Lake Nyos in Camaroon, West Africa for a famous incident involving CO2. Such releases dissapate because unconfined gas molecules don't care about the bulk density properties of their neighbors and freely intermix. O2 and He have very different bulk densities. Do divers using heliox mixtures shake their tanks to make sure the gases are well mixed?

The NO2 is absorbed into the falling rain which carries it to the ground. Soil and rainwater chemistry determine its ultimate fate.

 

[JoeStillman]

We must ban lightning.

:thumbsup::lol:

 

[JoeStillman]

I imagine that the lightning strokes in both instances did not fully equalize the potential between the cloud and the ground. The sensations you felt were from the residual positive charge on the earth's surface as the charged cloud continued to pass overhead after the lightning stroke.

 

[suemarkp]

We must ban lightning.

No, tax it. Or maybe count and trade would be more fair, since those in Seattle get off easy and must pay some restitution to Florida who gets too much lightning.

 

[Kermit]

As a side note about lightning, this is something to prove or disprove. I have heard that lightning can start a positive ground tractor, and not a negative ground . This might go back to the steel wheal days. Is there anything to this?