Measurement with door

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enigma-2

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Location
northern Indiana
I deviated an residential dwelling electrical plan for not providing GFCI protection on a receptacle located in a master bedroom, which was within 6 ft. of the edge of a bathtub (located in the master bathroom). It did not show a door.

He stated they would install a bathroom door and that would be hung so that it swing out (into the bedroom). Therefore the measurement should be taken starting from the receptacle and measuring around the open door (door will open 180? laying flat against the bedroom wall, covering over the receptacle).

This would decrease the 6 ft. measurement by 2 ft. (one foot over to the edge, and one foot back), allowing only a remaining four foot cord for measurement. Therefore the receptacle would no longer be within six-foot of the edge of the bathtub. I agreed and accepted the receptacle without GFCI protection.

However as this is a new code requirement, I thought I might ask for other opinions. As far as I know, it's never been discussed (that I know of) but the measurement is taken with the door in consideration, is it not? Or should it be straight-lined, ignoring the door?
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2014 NEC: 210.8(A)... "(9) Bathtubs or shower stalls -- where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the bathtub or shower stall."
 
Smart $

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
enigma-2 said:
...the measurement is taken with the door in consideration, is it not? Or should it be straight-lined, ignoring the door?
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Click to expand...
The requirement doesn't say specifically how to measure.

That said, I imagine the intent is shortest route of a 6' cord. Have you considered whether it is shorter by running a cord under the door?
 
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enigma-2

Member
Location
northern Indiana
It's my understanding that the new change applies to any receptacle within six-foot to the edge of the tub or shower; whether it's in the same room or not. We also take the edge as being to the physical edge to the of the fixture itself, not just the waters edge.

I don't have a 2014 commentary, has it been clarified in there?
 
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enigma-2

Member
Location
northern Indiana
Smart $ said:
The requirement doesn't say specifically how to measure.

That said, I imagine the intent is shortest route of a 6' cord. Have you considered whether it is shorter by running a cord under the door?
Click to expand...
!!! Never crossed my mind. What about running it under the door and up the hinge crack? (You get a thumbs up for thinking of this).:thumbsup:
 
mopowr steve

mopowr steve

Senior Member
Location
NW Ohio
Occupation
Electrical contractor
Measurements are taken along wall except where divided by a doorway or similar division of space.
 
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GoldDigger

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Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
mopowr steve said:
Measurements are taken along wall except where divided by a doorway or similar division of space.
Click to expand...

Which is really intended to apply to measurements inside the same room. Not at all clear to me how it affects clearance as opposed to mandatory minimum spacing requirements when the two points are in different rooms.
 
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enigma-2

Member
Location
northern Indiana
mopowr steve said:
Measurements are taken along wall except where divided by a doorway or similar division of space.
Click to expand...
Steve I think your confusing the requirement for the spacing of receptacles (210.52(A)) with protection. In 210.52(A)(2), the requirements for wall space only apply to that section.

210.8(A)(1) already requires ALL receptacles in the bathroom to be protected with a GFCI. If 210.8(A)(9) were to just refer to recepts only located in the bathroom, it would be unnecessary as item #1 coveres it completely. (I.E. all receptacles in the bathroom, whether within 6 ft of a tub/shower, or 20 ft.)

The new requirement of 210.8(A)(9) adds to this existing requirement, by requiring that ANY receptacle within six feet of the edge of the tub, including those receptacles outside the bathroom, be included when determining which need GFCI protection.

Two different concepts at work here.
 
Pharon

Pharon

Senior Member
Location
MA
enigma-2 said:
210.8(A)(1) already requires ALL receptacles in the bathroom to be protected with a GFCI. If 210.8(A)(9) were to just refer to recepts only located in the bathroom, it would be unnecessary as item #1 coveres it completely. (I.E. all receptacles in the bathroom, whether within 6 ft of a tub/shower, or 20 ft.)

The new requirement of 210.8(A)(9) adds to this existing requirement, by requiring that ANY receptacle within six feet of the edge of the tub, including those receptacles outside the bathroom, be included when determining which need GFCI protection.
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I disagree. The purpose of 210.8(A)(9) is stated in the 2014 Handbook:

Items (9) and (10) were added to 210.8(A) for the 2014 Code. In
some instances, bathtubs and shower stalls are installed in areas
that might not meet the NEC definition of a bathroom. Many of
these areas may have tile or other conductive, and possibly
grounded, floors. A shock hazard could be present. This change in
Code language ensures that tubs and showers in dwelling units
will have the same requirements for GFCI protection of receptacles,
regardless of what the room is called.
Click to expand...

I don't think there is any Code intention to include the GFCI sink/shower requirement for receptacles in adjoining rooms that are separated by doors.
 
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Smart $

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Pharon said:
...

I don't think there is any Code intention to include the GFCI sink/shower requirement for receptacles in adjoining rooms that are separated by doors.
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I think you should revise your thinking. ;)

The requirement is not room specific. IOW, limited to the room the bathtub or shower stall is located. Consider receptacles outdoors, near sinks, or laundry areas are required to be GFCI. Where's the 'room' in those requirements?
 
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GerryB

Senior Member
Location
woodbridge, ct. USA
This is interesting and quite a change if indeed you have to measure around doors and into other areas. So you say if you have a powder room in the hallway and a receptacle in the hallway within 6 feet of that sink it has to be GFI. There are inspectors on this site, I would be interested in there take. I was always told the master bedroom bath was a separate room (with a door) and it didn't need arc fault protection either like the bedroom(that's here in ct, we just adopted 2011 but have kept arc fault for bedrooms only) Another poster mentioned outside receptacles? they all have to be gfi regardless sink or not.
 
Smart $

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
GerryB said:
This is interesting and quite a change if indeed you have to measure around doors and into other areas. So you say if you have a powder room in the hallway and a receptacle in the hallway within 6 feet of that sink it has to be GFI. There are inspectors on this site, I would be interested in there take. I was always told the master bedroom bath was a separate room (with a door) and it didn't need arc fault protection either like the bedroom(that's here in ct, we just adopted 2011 but have kept arc fault for bedrooms only) Another poster mentioned outside receptacles? they all have to be gfi regardless sink or not.
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I agree, it'd be nice to hear from the inspectors.

The thing about these requirements, including as AFCI, is whether the requirement actually limits receptacle location by stating a 'room' by its title [or inclusion using a catch-all item like 'and similar areas'].

Where the requirement doesn't mention a room by title limit the location to the room, it should state elsewhere or within the requirement how the measurement should be taken. I think it's realistic to measure via the shortest possible route a cord can be routed between end points. To think one should measure as x-rays travel... that would just be utterly unrealistic. To think the requirement excludes adjacent room locations is just reading more into the requirement than is actually there.
 
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north star

Senior Member
Location
inside Area 51
= ( ~ ) =
"I agree, it'd be nice to hear from the inspectors."
Click to expand...
Ask and thou shalt receiveth !........I am a [ multi-certified ] Inspector, Plans Examiner & other.
To me, it has been my understanding and practice to measure the shortest route for the 6 ft.
dimension........That is how I would inspect it.

For the receptacle outside the bathroom, and around any door, I would assume that the door
may or may not always be there, and enforce the 6 ft. shortest route.......There is no requirement
to have a door continuously installed in a bathroom \ bedroom location, or the door may have to
be taken down for repairs and not re-installed right away [ i.e. - the most restrictive application ]. :cool:


= ( ~ ) =
 
F

Fladude38

Member
Location
United States
enigma-2 said:
I deviated an residential dwelling electrical plan for not providing GFCI protection on a receptacle located in a master bedroom,
--
2014 NEC: 210.8(A)... "(9) Bathtubs or shower stalls -- where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the bathtub or shower stall."
Click to expand...


This is something that needs clarification, maybe in the Handbook?

I think it may be more for circumstances where there may not be a division between baths and bedrooms or the like. The reason I say this is due to the fact its not required to have GFI's indoors within 6' of any door opening leading outside, any exterior windows other than fixed in place nor openings in general that are located on exterior surfaces.

If it does in fact become required to include door openings and any other break then it MUST include any and all exterior openings. It would be an oxymoron for it to count for one but not the other.

With that said, I think you made the right call.
 
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