Entire panel of breakers tripping off.

[rlundsrud]

I have to ask the OP, did you actually see this happen in person. Ifor you were told this happened by someone you consider to be reliable and in order to back that individual up are relaying the story as though you witnessed it is a formula for confusion. It is very much human nature to do this, so when I ask this it is not out of animosity nor is it meant to be accusing. I only ask as these events seem so very improbable that it seems to defy any other logic. A fundamental premise in being able to provide advice or assistance is to know all the factors that have occured. Information is always tainted when it is passed from one person to another. Please accept my apologies for casting doubts, I wish only to know the actual facts. If this story was relayed to you by someone please let us know. I don't doubt that you have worked on resolving this issue with all due diligence, I just can't believe that this keeps occurring given the the events as told. The breakers going to the off position and not the tripped position is especially difficult to reason out. I certainly would have taken a few breakers from one of the other units that have worked just fine and swapped them to see what happened. It eliminates geography and they are know good devices under the same relative working conditions. That would be my go to move.

Bob

 

[mwm1752]

Just a thought -- I know you megged the feeder but the portion of cable used could have had the section in which a (continuation type connection) splice was made during manufacturing. a bad splice within the cable would limit current flow or have a resistive factor between conductors. This could cause overheating, arcing or other associated problems with loose connections. Probably talking 10,000 - 1 odds but your situation calls for out of the box suggestions.

 

[kwired]

I have to ask the OP, did you actually see this happen in person. Ifor you were told this happened by someone you consider to be reliable and in order to back that individual up are relaying the story as though you witnessed it is a formula for confusion. It is very much human nature to do this, so when I ask this it is not out of animosity nor is it meant to be accusing. I only ask as these events seem so very improbable that it seems to defy any other logic. A fundamental premise in being able to provide advice or assistance is to know all the factors that have occured. Information is always tainted when it is passed from one person to another. Please accept my apologies for casting doubts, I wish only to know the actual facts. If this story was relayed to you by someone please let us know. I don't doubt that you have worked on resolving this issue with all due diligence, I just can't believe that this keeps occurring given the the events as told. The breakers going to the off position and not the tripped position is especially difficult to reason out. I certainly would have taken a few breakers from one of the other units that have worked just fine and swapped them to see what happened. It eliminates geography and they are know good devices under the same relative working conditions. That would be my go to move.

Bob

OP has claimed to witness this strange event at least once.

 

[K8MHZ]

So far, the common theme seems to be the vibration or shaking of the structure.

Kids run and jump around and slam doors and cupboards.

The slamming of the entry door between the garage and the unit.

Lots of activity, running the washer and dryer was mentioned.

The above relate to the times the breakers shut off.

When there is no one, or just one person there, the problem does not seem to occur.

It was also mentioned that all was well for about 6 weeks.

It may have taken that long for the issue caused by the vibration to manifest itself. I am thinking along the lines of insulation getting pierced that is accelerated by vibration. The observation that the levers do not go into the 'tripped' position kind of leads us away from a short circuit, however.

Others have had the gut feeling the breakers may be counterfeit. The OP says no, they came from the Siemans company. Well, since they have breakers made in Mexico and I'll bet they weren't shipped to the OP from Mexico, how does Siemans know they weren't counterfeit? It may very well be that they aren't, and are just of poor quality. When I looked up 'Siemans Mexico' the results came back with a recall for breakers made in Mexico.

http://www.siemens.ca/web/portal/en/IA_DT/BreakerRecall/Pages/Default.aspx

Last year I did an autopsy on a failed lighting controller. The contactors were OK, but the labels looked like something printed in a fireworks factory. They were labeled Siemans but screamed counterfeit. This same controller had dual voltage receptacles with improper UL info. UL was notified and took action against the company that was distributing the controllers. I figured they may have bootlegged the contactors, too. So I sent an e-mail to Siemans and never got so much as a response. Oh well, I tried.

I wish I was closer to the home with the problem. I love troubleshooting problems like the OP is telling us about. I hope he gets it figured out before the homeowners get sick of it and lets us know what he finds.

 

[ggunn]

A more conclusive experiment than a padlock would be dusting the breaker handles with one of those invisible chemicals that's used to trap people touching things they shouldn't. After the next time the breakers go off, shine a UV light on the kids's hands.

I once caught a "friend" of mine who was pilfering from me that way. I painted the surfaces of some of the spots that were being hit with a silver nitrate solution and watched for the black stains on his hands. Sure enough...

 

[Jon456]

Also they are telling me that it most always happens when there are many things being used, like washer, dryer, bathrooms, and lights all at the same time.

I wonder if this has more to do with vibration caused by an unbalanced load in the washer than due to electrical load. Especially if they have a modern HE washing machine: those spin at very high speeds and can really cause a house to shake.

 

[mbrooke]

Which would not explain either the non-AFCI breakers switching off as well or the handles going to the off instead of tripped position.
Not to mention that the arc signature recognition is gated by a minimum current through the breaker for at least most AFCI breakers. (8A ?)

I know However, I might argue the arc fault thing. I have heard of AFCIs tripping from RF and interference without load. With an AFCI anything is possible, but I am still having a hard time wrapping my mind around any regular breakers doing this.

I'd look into geology and other factors.

What does the US Gov't have around this neck of the rock (mountain) in Colorado?

Any strange magnetic fields?

NORAD?

Nukes not being stored properly?

Any strange implications from those crackhead wannabe meteorologists who think they can predict Florida hurricanes from a rock in Colorado while on the take from insurance companies while our insurance rates skyrocket in Florida under organized crime?

In a previous post I suggested a data logging magnetometer. Can OP set one up?

Other than that, get rid of the entire MDP and put in a different brand. Let the customer pay for it.

:lol: That though went through my mind. Bizarreness and/or things not working out as intended around anything our government touches is a norm rather than an exception :roll: But seriously, to the OP anything near by? Any other bizarre events?

It would also be very useful to capture one of these trip events on video. Get a camcorder with a lot of memory and set it to record at a low resolution so you have the maximum recording time. Then put it on a tripod in front of the breaker panel with the door open and the lights on and let it run for hours. MAKE SURE THE VIDEO TIMESTAMP SETTING IS TURNED ON (so no one can mess with the recording without it being apparent).

A video would definitely help. Or a hidden camera. It will remove a lot of doubt from people's minds.

Ok so here is an update. We removed all the AF breakers in the panel. The home owner is reporting that the breakers are still shutting off. Most of the time every single breaker in the panel has shut off. However a couple of times only about half of them. Also they are telling me that it most always happens when there are many things being used, like washer, dryer, bathrooms, and lights all at the same time. So when there is a load on the system. Which makes sence because when they are not home the breakers stay on. The other thing that has happened 2 more times is that when the garage door between the house and garage is closed hard the breakers turned off.

My next step is to remove the interior of the panel and install a new one with breakers. I will keep this updated as we find out more.

Any patterns? All on one side, every other? Have you looked to see any circuits overloaded?

Id say vibration plus load is the culprit. Certainly not for any regular case, but I have to agree with others if these breakers are counterfeited it could be an explanation. Replace the whole panel with something else like GE or Square D from a genuine supplier. If something is wrong within the box or breakers themselves that problem is eliminated.

Is it a manual garage door or one on an electric door opener? If manual, does that mean if you slam the door closed it causes the breakers to trip? How close to the garage door is this panel?

I really want to see photos of the inside of one of these breakers. More and more, the evidence is pointing to counterfeit. When you bought the panel and breakers for this living unit, did they come as a separate shipment from the panels and breakers for the other unit you wired? Or did it arrive as one large shipment of breakers for both units?

These breakers really should be drilled open. Plus Im just itching to know what the insides are like.

I have to ask the OP, did you actually see this happen in person. Ifor you were told this happened by someone you consider to be reliable and in order to back that individual up are relaying the story as though you witnessed it is a formula for confusion. It is very much human nature to do this, so when I ask this it is not out of animosity nor is it meant to be accusing. I only ask as these events seem so very improbable that it seems to defy any other logic. A fundamental premise in being able to provide advice or assistance is to know all the factors that have occured. Information is always tainted when it is passed from one person to another. Please accept my apologies for casting doubts, I wish only to know the actual facts. If this story was relayed to you by someone please let us know. I don't doubt that you have worked on resolving this issue with all due diligence, I just can't believe that this keeps occurring given the the events as told. The breakers going to the off position and not the tripped position is especially difficult to reason out. I certainly would have taken a few breakers from one of the other units that have worked just fine and swapped them to see what happened. It eliminates geography and they are know good devices under the same relative working conditions. That would be my go to move.

Bob

Well put. I see it the same way. Always say what you were told as to what you witnessed. The OP says he witnessed them trip in person, so I will take his word. If not that's ok. If this was me Id be going loco to figure it out.



Any pics of the panel in question for beginners? To the OP: If this is really happening don't give up. Something is going on what ever that may be. Good be as simple as counterfeited breakers.

 

[FionaZuppa]

maybe the panel is twisted slightly and when breakers are popped in they have some stress, and when other small vibration comes along the breaker just cant handle that and trips?

what did Siemens say ?? i suspect if Siemens was called you would not get an answer of "hmmmm, dont know, thanks for calling".

 

[PetrosA]

what did Siemens say ?? i suspect if Siemens was called you would not get an answer of "hmmmm, dont know, thanks for calling".

A few years back I needed tech support from Siemens. Turned out that they don't have any for customers or electricians. They nominate the local supplier as tech support go-between, so when you need help, you gotta call the supply house and talk to whatever idiot is manning the counter. Total BS.

 

[readydave8]

maybe the panel is twisted slightly and when breakers are popped in they have some stress, ((This seems likely)) and when other small vibration comes along the breaker just cant handle that and trips?((but he says they're not tripping,but going all the way to off?))

inserted comments within original text

 

[FionaZuppa]

inserted comments within original text

i was being sarcastic there. i really have no idea. someone (Siemens, supply house, friends in the trade) need to go investigate.

 

[scolaz]

Here is an update. Sorry for the delay in updating but we are extremely busy so I am not able to commit much time to this. We removed all of the Siemens breakers and installed Homeline breakers. The first week with the homeline breakers in there were several times that the entire panel went off. A couple of times only half and a couple of times all breakers went off except for one or two. The second week with the homeline breakers installed has had little problem with breakers going off and the entire panel has not shut off again as of yet. I will update this as time permits.

Thank You all for your continued help and ideas!

 

[Sierrasparky]

Here is an update. Sorry for the delay in updating but we are extremely busy so I am not able to commit much time to this. We removed all of the Siemens breakers and installed Homeline breakers. The first week with the homeline breakers in there were several times that the entire panel went off. A couple of times only half and a couple of times all breakers went off except for one or two. The second week with the homeline breakers installed has had little problem with breakers going off and the entire panel has not shut off again as of yet. I will update this as time permits.

Thank You all for your continued help and ideas!

Very weird.
you installed Homeline breakers and they initially tripped then they are ok.

I think you still have a problem with the wiring. I don't know the threshold of detection of ground fault or arc . The repeated resetting may clear the conddition and cause another.
Do you have pictures or video of the job during rough-in?

Or you have gremlins
or you have someone tripping breakers and you could have a customer looking to screw you.

 

[Electron_Sam78]

Any updates on this? I'm really wondering what's happening here.

 

[Pierce]

There is always an answer somewhere

There is always an answer somewhere

I have never had a problem of this scale but I have had to replace AF breakers twice before they ceased to trip un-neccessarily. You might consider contacting the panel manufacturer's help line. Square D has a very good one.

 

[mbrooke]

Where the breakers in the same Siemens panel?

 

[rcarroll]

Any updates on this? I'm really wondering what's happening here.

Scott, the OP, is out of town for a little while. I know that when he gets back, he'll hit this hard to get it cleared up.

 

[starbolin]

Here is an update. Sorry for the delay in updating but we are extremely busy so I am not able to commit much time to this. We removed all of the Siemens breakers and installed Homeline breakers. The first week with the homeline breakers in there were several times that the entire panel went off. A couple of times only half and a couple of times all breakers went off except for one or two. The second week with the homeline breakers installed has had little problem with breakers going off and the entire panel has not shut off again as of yet. I will update this as time permits.

Thank You all for your continued help and ideas!

Thanks for keeping us up to date!!

Could add to the sketchy evidence of over voltage spikes that was tripping the old breakers but who's origin has now cleared. ( Or the neighbor with a welder has taken a holiday. )

I don't like problems the go away on their own. A similar whim may convince them to return.

 

[Electron_Sam78]

Any updates in this?

 

[RichB]

Ok, so accepting your rousing endorsement as removing the prank possibility, here's a thought.

What if the existing interior is not bolted down to the can correctly? If so, then ONE breaker trips, and/or the garage door closes, and/or the kids are at home rough housing on the spongy plywood flooring with cheap joists, the resulting rattling of the interior might be causing the rest (or several) of the other breakers to snap to the off position. Wraps up all of the incongruous anomalies; AFCI vs Std trip, full Off vs Trip position, some breakers with no wires connected still moving to Off, inconsistent observation of it happening because the conditions have to be just right etc..

House construction ain't what it used to be. I lived in a house built in 1910 in Seattle, when my kids jumped around, I never felt it in the room next door. My current house, built in 1971, has 3/4" T&G plywood floors with 24" on center 2x6 floor joists (code at the time, I checked). When my 121lb wife comes in the front door and I'm in the back bedroom 40 ft away, I can tell, by the way the house shakes, which room she is in. I added two rooms myself, 1" T&G over 4x6 teated joists, when she goes in those rooms, she can sneak up on me, I have no idea. My load center is on the garage wall, which is next to the largest of the original "spongy floor" rooms. When I'm working in the garage and someone walks through that room, I can see the wall flex. If my panel interior were loose, i think it might cause the breakers to flip Off.

:huh:Just wondering what a "teated joist" is?:roll: