are things going backwards as i get older? walk away

[wyreman]

How did I get a call like this?

Ive had many calls over the years to survey electrical installation, condemn what needs it and price the improvements.
To willing customers.

Today I have a call from (very nice) people who have an huge old house with sticky renters they want to evict.
Renters claiming many "unsafe conditions", sparking outlets mostly. possible broken light in the bathroom, etc.
Landlord wants them out.

So I am called into an electrical "ruin" to document that it is "not unsafe"
blame it all on the renter where possible and get them out

FP panels, exposed mc, almost every outlet is loose to the tester, mostly k&t, missing a few gfis, some reverse polarity, needs battery smokies... plenty to do.

Landlord wants me to document it as "meeting acceptable minimum standards" and to fix what is actually a hazard
Renters are supposed to be litigious.
I will certainly document the baseboard heaters with the sofas pushed up against them, the daisy chain extension cords (but not the inadequate distribution)
no SA cts, outlets scabbed off the baseboard htr cts, fp panels will never overload etc
I wouldn't mention in this report the fp panels or inadequate distribution

Job now is writing report and then doing the minimum- prob +/- dozen outlets and gfis
I've got about 1-1/2 hours into it now.
And then "improving it in the future"
I guess they are having their daughter move in and will actually improve it then.

I don't really want the job and can abandon the sunk 1*1/2 hr

I guess my main question is: what is the official minimum safety standard?
Its really my judgement call and ... while I have certainly seen worse, and this shack could likely persist for another 50 years like this, where is there any benefit to me to write any of this up?
On the other hand, I can easily call out the worst of the deficiencies, estimate for 20 GFIs and get paid for - first the survey - then the report - then the gfis
and I would have documented the worst.

I would need a boilerplate disclaimer of responsibility without taking apart every device and notice that further inadequacies could possibly [not WILL LIKELY] be discovered...

how to gracefully decline the job - just document and price it fully?

 

[wyreman]

actually, how do home inspectors do it?
could be a good bumper sticker

could just break out some old home inspection reports and look at their verbiage

when i say document and price it fully - where does it end?
could easily gut the old victorian and start again.

really a question of economics - opportunity cost - what else do you have to do and how much can you charge here or elsewhere

 

[wyreman]

"There is a third, silent partner to all our bargains." Emerson

 

[kwired]

Tell them what problems you see, and explain what kind of problems they potentially could lead to. For loose receptacles as well as tenant use of extension cords. If they don't want to fix them that is their problem.

If you said it was fine then they burn the house down, don't act surprised when they point fingers at you.

 

[enigma-2]

How did I get a call like this?

I guess my main question is: what is the official minimum safety standard?
Its really my judgement call and ... while I have certainly seen worse, and this shack could likely persist for another 50 years like this, where is there any benefit to me to write any of this up?
On the other hand, I can easily call out the worst of the deficiencies, estimate for 20 GFIs and get paid for - first the survey - then the report - then the gfis
and I would have documented the worst.

I would need a boilerplate disclaimer of responsibility without taking apart every device and notice that further inadequacies could possibly [not WILL LIKELY] be discovered...

how to gracefully decline the job - just document and price it fully?

What if .... a fire breaks out in a month from now, and (God forbid) someone dies, and you knew of a hazard condition and did not report it, would your license be in jeopardy? Would you be able to live with yourself knowing you could have made a difference?

I would just write it up as you seen it, and offer your professional 'opinion' as to what's needed and let the owners decide where to go from there. Protect yourself and the people living there at all costs.

 

[charlie b]

I would just write it up as you seen it, and offer your professional 'opinion' as to what's needed and let the owners decide where to go from there.

Yea, what he said! To that I will add that it is not your job to blame anything on the renters. Most of what you describe seems to me to be the owner's responsibility (missing SA circuits, missing GFCI, that sort of thing). I would even say that loose outlets is an owner maintenance issue. If the owner wants to kick the renters out, then I think you should not be a participant in that part of this situation. You are an electrical professional; just be that.

 

[zbang]

Most of what you describe seems to me to be the owner's responsibility (missing SA circuits, missing GFCI, that sort of thing).

But... were those to-code when installed? A house built in the '60s and never improved can't be "missing" GFCIs unless a retrofit was mandated.

That aside, yes, document it all and let the owner decide what they're going to do with the report.

 

[dhalleron]

I was talking to a friend of mine a week or so ago. He had a customer wanting him to document all the wiring in a house was safe.

My friend responded by stating that he is an electrician, not an inspector and he also cannot see inside the walls.

He wrote some kind of disclaimer to that effect and only documented the repairs he completed.

 

[gadfly56]

But... were those to-code when installed? A house built in the '60s and never improved can't be "missing" GFCIs unless a retrofit was mandated.

That aside, yes, document it all and let the owner decide what they're going to do with the report.

A very good point. The OP mentioned K&T wire, so the house probably dates back to the 30's or earlier. GFCI, AFCI, SA branch, and a ton of other stuff wouldn't have been required then. Depending on the area, there may have been no code at all in effect when the house was built, what then?

Loose receptacles seem like a maintenance issue to me so would be on the landlord unless there is clear evidence of tampering. As for the rest of it, it seems like it's an issue of who did what when. If the landlord bought the property with the unsafe (scabbed circuits, etc) conditions it was on them to correct them before renting the house or as soon as they were made aware. Someone would have to prove the tenant had tampered with the service to move the responsibility onto them.

 

[wyreman]

And how to write up loose receptacles?
loose receptacles can produce small arc when heavy portable loads are unplugged. This normally would be enclosed in a fire rested box. Some old K&t cts land in small boxes with more contact w combustible material than considered safe today.
Also the victorian distribution of power means that outlet boxes are bea holy loaded and often concealed behind cabinets or appliances hen they are not readily inspected or behind beds with attendant bed clothes or by windows and drapes.
The admonition to keep all combustibles min 3 ft from these loose and heavily loaded outlets is hard to control over time with building use by "unqualified personnel " and so outlets are required to be provided as per layout which is within 6' of doors and the. Every 12 feet
Further baseboard htrs in this case are built in rooms who size and shape virtually guarentee that furniture will be pushed in front of them and they will be out of sight and in contact w combustibles.

Same baseboard heaters are not on ondividual cts as easily observed with outlets nearby and serving baseboard enclosure. This likely leads to ct overload and the obsolete fp panels can not be relied upon to ole. In case of overload.

These same panels will not protect against overload to other cts that we're found to be inadequate such as ba hair dryers cts, kitchen counter and individual appliance cts.

We would recommend restoring the dedicated circuits as required originally by code and displacing the later additions, moving them to new cts sourced from panels calculated to be of adequate capacity

This will likely require new equipment which will require Afci breakers as per current code

We recommend replacing all loose outlets, provide gfis where 3prong outlets have been istalled on K&t cts, disabling htrs that will be covered by beds or cabinets, providing battery smoke detectors as per ubc, checking. Building grounding system, removing all surface flex below 8 feet
Since we will start w abandong inadequate work
We will only need to pull city permit when we get ready to run the new cts and panel for layout


They won't accept that kind of report and anyway it's a hardship

It's more like that's an old. I titian and you don't have enough money so you will have to run it to failure. You will need to get a handyman to help you limp it along. Please pay me 3hrs for the report. Thx for the opportunity

 

[K8MHZ]

I have been a landlord, a tenant and am now an electrician with a few hours of working on old houses under my belt.

Take it from me, do not get involved in tenant/landlord disputes. You can't solve those problems electrically.

Good luck on doing estimates fixing things in old houses with the electrical system in a state of disrepair. This is one of the few areas of our trade that T&M equates to CYA and never a tidy profit. Usually every box you open is a Pandora's Box exposing more and more work that needs to be done.

I used to own an automotive electrical repair facility and people would bring in cars for me to fix and then ask something like, 'Is it going to be safe / OK to drive from Michigan to California?"

Knowing that there have been brand new cars that have failed on such trips, my answer would be, "Well, I can't read minds and I can't predict the future. Everything else, I know."

If the landlord wants to evict the tenant, why don't they just do it? Why do they need to drag an electrician into the predicament?

 

[wyreman]

Something about tenant claims old victorian has unsafe conditions and this... Somehow gives him longevity rights


The problem is now I have to write something

 

[K8MHZ]

Something about tenant claims old victorian has unsafe conditions and this... Somehow gives him longevity rights


The problem is now I have to write something

Why do you have to do anything?

Are you an inspector or an AHJ? Your bio just says electrician. If so, all you have to do is tell the people you don't want to be involved. Why should you even CARE about things like 'longevity rights'? That BS is for a judge to decide. Think about this logically, if the unit is unsafe, what sane person would consider that a reason to stay, not to leave?

If you really want the work, tell the landlord to contact you after they have evicted the tenants and you will look at it then. Explain to them that the price will be MUCH cheaper working in an unoccupied unit. And that is not BS. It's far easier to do that amount and extent of work with no tenants and furniture to try to work around.

 

[paul]

I wouldn't include anything about extension cords. Our responsiblity as wiremen stops at the outlet.

If it were me, I would say that the whole electrical system needs to be upgraded, which includes but not limited to; service, distribution panel, branch circuits & related wiring, all fixtures, outlets, bonding and grounding to compy with the latest codes. Cover your backside. Since you cannot see all the K&T and splices, assume for the worst.

Good luck

 

[paul]

More truthful, if it were me, I would have turned and ran like the wind.

 

[wyreman]

I don't have to do anything.
Its a conflict.

I surveyed it.
I will write a report.
here's the first draft

Loose receptacles
loose receptacles can produce small arc when heavy portable loads are unplugged.
This normally would be enclosed in a fire rested box. Some old K&t cts land in small boxes with more contact w combustible material than considered safe today.
Device condition: many devices meet minimum standards "green light" on tester
there remain some 20 devices that need to be replaced, the wiring inspected

Distribution
Victorian house distribution when not updated to modern standard is inadequate by definition
Heavy loads need robust outlets with dedicated circuits
portable space heaters
kitchen counter
any appliance that utilizes more than half the ampacity of the ct
distribution of power means that outlet boxes are bea holy loaded and often concealed behind cabinets or appliances hen they are not readily inspected or behind beds with attendant bed clothes or by windows and drapes.
Circuits have been added incrementally, often by unqualified persons
At this installation we have found outlet boxes are few and far between
loaded and often concealed behind cabinets or appliances where they are not readily inspected or
behind beds with attendant bed clothes or
by windows and behind drapes.
Power distribution is not up to current standards of fire safety
New circuits need to be added to meet layout and reduce the use of extension cords

Baseboard heaters not kept 3' from combustibles should be disabled
The admonition to keep all combustibles min 3 ft from these loose and heavily loaded outlets is hard to control over time with building use by "unqualified personnel " and so outlets are required to be provided as per layout which is within 6' of doors and the. Every 12 feet
Further baseboard htrs in this case are built in rooms who size and shape virtually guarentee that furniture will be pushed in front of them and they will be out of sight and in contact w combustibles.
Same baseboard heaters are not on ondividual cts as easily observed with outlets nearby and serving baseboard enclosure. This likely leads to ct overload and the obsolete fp panels can not be relied upon to ole. In case of overload.

New layout from new distribution
These same panels will not protect against overload to other cts that we're found to be inadequate such as ba hair dryers cts, kitchen counter and individual appliance cts.
We would recommend restoring the dedicated circuits as required originally by code and displacing the later additions, moving them to new cts sourced from panels calculated to be of adequate capacity
This will likely require new equipment which will require Afci breakers as per current code
TFCI outlets as needed

General recommendations
We recommend replacing all loose outlets, provide gfis where 3prong outlets have been istalled on K&t cts, disabling htrs that will be covered by beds or cabinets, providing battery smoke detectors as per ubc, checking. Building grounding system, removing all surface flex below 8 feet
Abandon inadequate work

Conclusions
hardship
They won't accept that kind of report and anyway it's a hardship
It's an old victorian and you don't want to fix it so you will run it to failure. You will need to get a handyman to help you limp it along. Please pay me 3hrs for the report. Thx for the opportunity
If your phone don't ring you know its me!

 

[wyreman]

https://checkvist.com/checklists/460790/accept?secret=OqMFWP3Am0Vr5I

 

[K8MHZ]

https://checkvist.com/checklists/460790/accept?secret=OqMFWP3Am0Vr5I

You may want to explain to us what that is all about. The link you posted wants the user to provide an email address and a password in order to set up an account, which I for one, am not going to do.

 

[wyreman]

its just that outline in a clearer form

 

[K8MHZ]

its just that outline in a clearer form

So does that mean the problem will be almost half solved if we surrender our e-mail addresses?