is it a branch or feeder?

[Brian S.]

I bidding a job it calls for 8 200amp floor boxes. since its a receptacle I would consider it a branch circuit. my coworker is calling it a feeder since who ever is connecting to this will probably have a distribution panel with breakers. these boxes are for future use. some suggestion from the client for their use are, for musical entertainment, lighting display in winter, or a vendor expo. if the use was for audio equipment it would fall under 210.2 correct.

 

[iwire]

Branch until they plug a panel into it, then a feeder.

But does it really matter?

 

[augie47]

But does it really matter?

my thoughts too

 

[zbang]

my thoughts too

And mine (branch or feeder really depends on what's on the end).

From art. 100:
Branch Circuit. The circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s).

Feeder. All circuit conductors between the service equipment, the source of a separately derived system, or other power supply source and the final branch-circuit overcurrent device.

 

[GoldDigger]

And mine (branch or feeder really depends on what's on the end).

From art. 100:
Branch Circuit. The circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s).

Feeder. All circuit conductors between the service equipment, the source of a separately derived system, or other power supply source and the final branch-circuit overcurrent device.

Subtle additional factor: If the receptacle feeds a road board or other temporary equipment, then that may not be part of the building wiring. In that case the receptacle really is the outlet and any downstream breakers do not count.

 

[jumper]

But does it really matter?

my thoughts too

How are we gonna nit pick and argue this question for 300+ posts if you two post reasonable stuff like that.

 

[kwired]

Subtle additional factor: If the receptacle feeds a road board or other temporary equipment, then that may not be part of the building wiring. In that case the receptacle really is the outlet and any downstream breakers do not count.

Correct, the receptacle is the outlet. Whatever is plugged into it is not premises wiring. If what is plugged in is premises wiring we probably have violations of the use of flexible cords, but I also don't see anyone using a 200 amp receptacle as part of something fixed and thinking they are going to save some money.

 

[charlie b]

Subtle additional factor: If the receptacle feeds a road board or other temporary equipment, then that may not be part of the building wiring. In that case the receptacle really is the outlet and any downstream breakers do not count.

I also agree with this interpretation.

 

[Brian S.]

thank you

thank you

The reason for the question was they specified that all feeders must be ridged and my quote was astronomical for 8 of these . A branch can be EMT is a big money saver.

 

[GoldDigger]

The reason for the question was they specified that all feeders must be ridged and my quote was astronomical for 8 of these . A branch can be EMT is a big money saver.

:thumbsup:
But it sure is a big branch....

 

[iwire]

Subtle additional factor: If the receptacle feeds a road board or other temporary equipment, then that may not be part of the building wiring. In that case the receptacle really is the outlet and any downstream breakers do not count.

I also agree with this interpretation.

We are getting into a very gray area here, one that in my opinion only the AHJ can answer.

Here is what I see, if you roll up a piece of large equipment, such as a compressor that is listed as a complete unit with OCPDs and so forth in it the circuit would still remain a branch circuit once that unit has been plugged in.

On the other hand, if you roll up a panelboard mounted in a road case, that is simply listed as a panelboard and from that panelboard you feed other individual listed equipment with cord and plugs you are now doing temporary wiring as covered in article 590 and that would mean the circuit the OP is running is a feeder.

May areas require licensed electricians on site for this type of work because they have decided the NEC applies to this work.

 

[Smart $]

A branch circuit IMO, regardless of what is plugged into the receptacles.

Aside from the other points posted already, consider receptacles are covered in Article 210 and not in Article 215.

 

[kwired]

A branch circuit IMO, regardless of what is plugged into the receptacles.

Aside from the other points posted already, consider receptacles are covered in Article 210 and not in Article 215.

I agree. Whatever is plugged in is not premises wiring.

If what is plugged in is supposed to be premises wiring we may have violations in the use of flexible cords area.

Many people that use flexible cords as a substitute for permanent wiring do so because they are somehow saving some money in installation costs. As I stated before not many will look at the cost of a 200 amp receptacle or matching connector and think much about how cheap it is:happyno:

 

[Smart $]

I agree. Whatever is plugged in is not premises wiring.

If what is plugged in is supposed to be premises wiring we may have violations in the use of flexible cords area.

Many people that use flexible cords as a substitute for permanent wiring do so because they are somehow saving some money in installation costs. As I stated before not many will look at the cost of a 200 amp receptacle or matching connector and think much about how cheap it is:happyno:

I can't agree that whatever is plugged in is not premises wiring. Flexible cords can be used in premises wiring, including plug connected, e.g. frequently changed or moved equipment.

 

[kwired]

I can't agree that whatever is plugged in is not premises wiring. Flexible cords can be used in premises wiring, including plug connected, e.g. frequently changed or moved equipment.

If the receptacle is intended for a specific item, that may be true. OP's outlets seem to be there for no specific item but rather whatever should come along that could use it.

 

[iwire]

A branch circuit IMO, regardless of what is plugged into the receptacles.

I can't agree and maintain it will be up to the AHJ.

I agree. Whatever is plugged in is not premises wiring.

Temporary wiring must be premise wiring or there would be no point in article 590 at all.

 

[kwired]

I can't agree and maintain it will be up to the AHJ.



Temporary wiring must be premise wiring or there would be no point in article 590 at all.

Now that puts us into a grey area, should AHJ's require permits and inspections to plug in any and all "temporary" cords?

The temporary wiring that permits are necessary for around here involving cords, plugs, receptacles is usually just up to the receptacle, especially for a typical 5-15 or 5-20 receptacle. A 200 amp receptacle - can't say I ever installed one as a temporary, have installed permanent 200 amp receptacles. Inspector never wanted to see what gets plugged into it. It was for mobile CT and MRI scanners in a semi trailer that travels around to rural hospitals. I guess if he really wanted to see it he would need to contact the company operating the units and schedule with them, but at same time why should what they plug into my otherwise compliant installation be a problem for my permit that ended at the receptacle? Do they need a permit/inspection for every time they pull up to a hospital before they can plug in? That might mean the state needs to hire another inspector just to travel with them every day as they may hit multiple facilities in one day.

 

[Smart $]

I can't agree and maintain it will be up to the AHJ.



Temporary wiring must be premise wiring or there would be no point in article 590 at all.

So how does the AHJ determine receptacle compliance if he feels supply wiring is a feeder? Cite code that indicates supply wiring of a receptacle circuit can be a feeder.

I believe there's a difference between portable equipment wiring and temporary wiring.