compliance view here on #12 to the nearest cold water pipe

[wyreman]

One more time so I understand pls

I thought only the 1st 5' of the water pipe count as GEC

What is the compliance view here on forum of the common practice of grabbing nearest cold water pipe to make an old k&t outlet grounded instead of just installing a gfi

I say either install gfi or you need a grounded ct back to a new ct w that has gec included

And that new ct needs - likely - an Afci
Which probably won't fit in the old panel
Which will need to be replaced
New panel!

And that's a good thing
????

Also the loose wire never has any kind of approved strain relief


In belief, man can do anything

 

[augie47]

As far back as the '99 Code it made it clear that if you used a single conductor to the water pipe to ground the receptacle it was required to go to the grounding electrode conductor portion of the pipe. I believe in some earlier Code a wire to the pipe (at any point) would suffice but I don't have anything before 1999 handy.


The AFCI situation changes so much as each new Code is adopted I can't say I'm up to date, but depending on which Code cycle, there are methods of using an AFCI device properly connected to an older panel so you don't necessarily have to replace the panel.

 

[jumper]

One more time so I understand pls

I thought only the 1st 5' of the water pipe count as GEC

As far back as the '99 Code it made it clear that if you used a single conductor to the water pipe to grouding the receptacle it was required to go to the grounding electrode conductor portion of the pipe. I believe in some earlier Code a wire to the pipe (at any point) would suffice but I don't have anything before 1999 handy.

Nit pick!

That 5' of pipe is just an allowed attachment point, not an actual "portion of a GEC", only what is in the dirt is a GEC.

 

[augie47]

Nit pick!

That 5' of pipe is just an allowed attachment point, not an actual "portion of a GEC", only what is in the dirt is a GEC.

interesting point ! get the shovel out

I don't think I have seen the "added conductor" method of grounding in the last 20 years.

 

[jumper]

interesting point ! get the shovel out

I don't think I have seen the "added conductor" method of grounding in the last 20 years.

I ain't never seen it, 'cept pictures.

 

[infinity]

Under the 1990 NEC {250-50(b)Exception} and in earlier code cycles a bonding jumper was permitted to be run from the grounding terminal of the receptacle to any water pipe that was bonded in accordance with 250-80(a).

250-80(a) Metal Water Piping. The interior metal water piping system shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used.

 

[ActionDave]

Under the 1990 NEC {250-50(b)Exception} and in earlier code cycles a bonding jumper was permitted to be run from the grounding terminal of the receptacle to any water pipe that was bonded in accordance with 250-80(a).

You are taking me back to the good ole days. Cue up some tunes from the Black Crowes, G n R, Nirvanna and I'll be pathetically nostalgic for the next four hours.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I agree with the others. As far as the code is concerned the first 5' is considered a grounding electrode conductor, or as some may see it an extension of the grounding electrode, if it is metallic in the ground for 10' or more. You cannot just hook to a water line anywhere. I have seen that done and there was plastic pipe coming in. No good. You can also tie the grounding electrode conductor anywhere on the system or even go back to the panel. There may be other scenarios but its late- this is from the head-- be careful.....

 

[jxofaltrds]

I agree with the others. As far as the code is concerned the first 5' is considered a grounding electrode conductor, or as some may see it an extension of the grounding electrode, if it is metallic in the ground for 10' or more. You cannot just hook to a water line anywhere. I have seen that done and there was plastic pipe coming in. No good. You can also tie the grounding electrode conductor anywhere on the system or even go back to the panel. There may be other scenarios but its late- this is from the head-- be careful.....

The first 5' 'can' be both (not at the same time). It is an electrode to the first connection 'bond'. Everything after that to the 5' limit is a GEC.

IMHO if you have a water meter (inside) the electrode bond must be prior to the meter, then a bonding jumper, and not after with a bonding jumper across it.

What I am saying is NOTHING can break the waterline before the GEC connection. In the picture the shut off does not break the electrode. Would it be wiser to put the GEC connecting before it should it need to be replaced? Yes! But not required. That is why I carried jumper cables anytime I have to 'break' the continuity of the water line. Ask any old time plumber if they have seen sparks cutting a water line.



250.53 Grounding Electrode System Installation.
(D) Metal UndergroundWater Pipe. If used as a grounding
electrode, metal underground water pipe shall meet the
requirements of 250.53(D)(1) and (D)(2).

(1) Continuity. Continuity of the grounding path or the
bonding connection to interior piping shall not rely on water
meters or filtering devices and similar equipment.

 

[jumper]

The first 5' 'can' be both (not at the same time). It is an electrode to the first connection 'bond'. Everything after that to the 5' limit is a GEC.

Actually the that 5' is neither an electrode nor a GEC, it is merely a section that is allowed to used as a connection point for a GEC and a conductor to reach the electrode.

250.68(C) Metallic Water Pipe and Structural Metal. Grounding
electrode conductors and bonding jumpers shall be permitted
to be connected at the following locations and used
to extend the connection to an electrode(s):

(1) Interior metal water piping located not more than 1.52 m
(5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall be
permitted to be used as a conductor to interconnect electrodes
that are part of the grounding electrode system.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Actually the that 5' is neither an electrode nor a GEC, it is merely a section that is allowed to used as a connection point for a GEC and a conductor to reach the electrode.

250.68(C) Metallic Water Pipe and Structural Metal. Grounding
electrode conductors and bonding jumpers shall be permitted
to be connected at the following locations and used
to extend the connection to an electrode(s):

(1) Interior metal water piping located not more than 1.52 m
(5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall be
permitted to be used as a conductor to interconnect electrodes
that are part of the grounding electrode system.

Again I say that it (the metal water pipe) IS an electrode up to its connection to the electrical system.
Grounding Electrode. A conducting object through which
a direct connection to earth is established.

250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground
water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or
more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and
electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by
bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the
points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and
the bonding conductor(s) or jumper(s), if installed.

Also note what is allowed to be "jumper"ed. Just looked at the ''s. LOL. It is not meant as a jab but is funny!

 

[mjc763]

I was always of the understating that the electrode portion is buried, and in order to attach to it you can use 5' after it emerges from grade as a conductor for attachment to your GEC. I guess I would like to call that 5' a bonding jumper.

 

[electricalist]

So if the house was built in the 90 s I could run a ground to cold water anywhere? Thats sorta like code compliant. :happyno:

 

[jxofaltrds]

So if the house was built in the 90 s I could run a ground to cold water anywhere? Thats sorta like code compliant. :happyno:

Correct.

Residential Code:

113.4 Additions and alterations. Additions or alterations to residential buildings
shall conform with the requirements of the code for new construction and shall
be approved by the residential building official. Additions or alterations shall not
be made to an existing residential building or structure which will cause the
existing residential building or structure to be in violation of any provisions of
this code. Portions of the structure not altered and not affected by the alteration
are not required to comply with the code requirements for a new structure.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Look at 250.130

(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch
Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor
of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension
shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system
as described in 250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure
where the branch circuit for the receptacle or
branch circuit originates
(4) An equipment grounding conductor that is part of another
branch circuit that originates from the enclosure
where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch
circuit originates
(5) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor
within the service equipment enclosure
(6) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar
within the service equipment enclosure

 

[jxofaltrds]

Look at 250.130

I was agreeing with the :happyno:

Points of attachment.
250.50 Grounding Electrode System.

 

[kwired]

So if the house was built in the 90 s I could run a ground to cold water anywhere? Thats sorta like code compliant. :happyno:

Sort of is exactly right. I'm pretty sure if it were built in 1990 that there wasn't any circuits permitted to not have an EGC run with them, you were not running K & T back then either. So there is really no chance of needing to add an EGC to a circuit that was otherwise compliant without an EGC in the first place. However in 1990 you could have grabbed the most convenient grounded water piping location to bring an EGC to an existing circuit that was installed at a time when a EGC was not required.

 

[kwired]

As far as the first 5 feet of water pipe being a grounding electrode vs the GEC or something else - IDK, but how does it compare to building steel or rebar making up a CEE that is extended outside the concrete? The building steel is not the true electrode, the portion that connects to earth is, and similar with rebar stubbed out of the footing for the purpose of connection to the GEC.

In most cases it kind of doesn't matter much as you can make bonding jumpers to other electrodes from either the GEC itself or from another electrode. The first 5 feet of water pipe can have a bonding jumper landed on it to another electrode, but it maybe isn't clear if it is truly the electrode or some kind of extension of the GEC which generally isn't allowed without irreversible connection means) which makes me lean toward the electrode extends up to 5 feet into the structure point of view.

How about a ground rod that has the GEC attachment above grade, but still has at least 8 feet of rod in the ground? That portion between the clamp and grade level part of the electrode or part of the GEC?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I was agreeing with the :happyno:

Points of attachment.
250.50 Grounding Electrode System.

I didn't quote you. It was meant as a general info post for all. Sorry

 

[GoldDigger]

Well, at least it is irreversibly attached to the electrode if you consider it to be GEC.