Hi all. New here.

[kwired]

Also, perhaps the difference is, as you said, that in the case of an emergency, they basically stabilize until ems arrives. We have had days where they have shown up half a dozen times.

But how often have they showed up half dozen times in one day to pick up same patient from same "sleeping room"? If they move the patient to a special care room in those kind of instances then that room may need to have art 517 applied to it.

 

[kwired]

Most nursing homes I have been around are not art 517 health care facilities. They seldom have a doctor even show up at the facility for the purpose of patient care, they don't have many registered nurses or higher, most workers directly interacting with the "residents" are CNA or even non health care certified people. The few nurses that are there do look at health of residents and make decisions on when higher level of care is needed, or at least when doctor appointments are necessary and the resident is transported to a higher level health care facility for such appointments. Most of the care provided is personal hygiene care, administering prescriptions that were prescribed at another care facility, and providing activities for the residents to do. Many other ongoing treatments that are done are typically treatments that may be done in a person's home but the resident is generally not in physical or mental condition to treat themselves at home.

 

[Bladnaster]

But how often have they showed up half dozen times in one day to pick up same patient from same "sleeping room"? If they move the patient to a special care room in those kind of instances then that room may need to have art 517 applied to it.

Oh no...always for different patients. Most of the time when they come to get them the patients will be gone for awhile, if they come back at all. I havent been here long, but cant remember having seen a patient come back in the same day.

 

[jimdavis]

Also, I can not find where it says that I need an EGC. AC cable with the tracer I believe is listed as a suitable ground much to my disdain. As far as general wiring goes, up to this point everything has always been piped, mc or romex. Never had to worry about not having a ground.

The requirements for hospital grade receptacles connected to an insulated copper EGC are found in 517.18(A) and 517.19(B)(2). However these requirements would not apply to sleeping rooms. As I interpret the requirements they would apply to treatment or examination rooms IF they contained a patient bed based on 517.10(A) and (B). You may also want to look at general grounding requirements for patient care areas in 517.13.

 

[Bladnaster]

The requirements for hospital grade receptacles connected to an insulated copper EGC are found in 517.18(A) and 517.19(B)(2). However these requirements would not apply to sleeping rooms. As I interpret the requirements they would apply to treatment or examination rooms IF they contained a patient bed based on 517.10(A) and (B). You may also want to look at general grounding requirements for patient care areas in 517.13.

Ok, I see it. I was too focused on 517.13A

Basically means that even if the facility was required to have hospital grade receptacles, they would not be able to comply without re-wiring the whole building?

Its been so long since I've had to study any great amount of code that my mind is starting to fry. In most cases, unless there is a change or a question on box fill or the like, the engineers and electrical contractors take care of the nitty gritty. Perhaps this whole experience will be good for me. More knowledge is always better, at least till it comes time to argue with a foreman over code issues. That should be fun.

 

[jimdavis]

Basically means that even if the facility was required to have hospital grade receptacles, they would not be able to comply without re-wiring the whole building?

Not the whole building. If there are patient care areas that fall under part II of article 517 then those areas would require a different wiring method containing an insulated copper EGC.

 

[Bladnaster]

Not the whole building. If there are patient care areas that fall under part II of article 517 then those areas would require a different wiring method containing an insulated copper EGC.

Ha. I still think the whole building should be gutted and re-done. The electrical is not the only problem, just the most dangerous.

Told my buddy that the building is like an 80 year old diseased hooker with a ton of makeup on. On the surface the building may not look bad to those who do not know about buildings, but man, scratch the surface just a little bit and its ugly.

Most likely I will do what I am doing, hand in the report of what needs to be done at which point I will be fired because I will not just rig the crap or ignore it. If I see something wrong I will have to fix it. I will not be able to just (lets say) replace a device and ignore what is wrong.

Thats ok. From what I hear, there are some major projects coming up for Yale. I was wondering when they were going to start them up. They bought a few buildings and have been sitting on them for like 2 years now. Thats not like Yale. They spend money on their facility's and spare no expense.

After seeing this, it will be a pleasure getting back to construction.

I would like to take the time to thank everyone for the responses. I am sure I will come across more but for now at least I have an idea of the direction I need to go, a bit more on what needs to be focused on.

Dave

 

[readydave8]

Would you happen to know what these boxes are called.

Through-the-wall, or 2 sided

 

[Bladnaster]

Through-the-wall, or 2 sided

Ok, thanks. They must be either very rare usage or old. I could only find one example with this search,(which was a video) but what was shown was not even close to what I'm talking about. Was something "new" (2007) they were promoting with the two sided idea, but offset from each other. If they have the same tendency's as what I've been dealing with, cant say I will like this product all that much. Even with professionals, mistakes happen. What happens if these become common and Joe Hack begins putting them in? Just my thoughts on the subject.

Only reason I am questioning them is because they do not seem very safe. As with most of the plugs I've looked at in this place, the wiring was very shoddy with wires and splices coming apart just pulling out the outlets when I went to take a look. Where these boxes are, combined with the shoddy wiring, you pull out one side of the outlet and the connections to the other device can come off without you knowing.

The only reason I even found out they were using these boxes was because of this reason. Pulled the plug out a bit to check how deep the box was in, closed it up, finished the room and when I went to retest the wall of the room I was in, none of the outlets were working. Shut the power off, went back into the box looking "deeper" with a flashlight and to my surprise, there was the back of another outlet with one of the black wires pulled out. Just happy that it was the line to the outlet I was working on instead of the line that was feeding both sides of the wall so the only thing that happened was a dead wall.

My biggest fear in this place is that something comes apart that is out of my sight and someone ends up getting hurt. I'm doing things as safely as I can but man it can be nerve wracking. Its like playing that game Jenga, but with consequences.

Anyways, thank you for the reply. I'll do some more digging with that terminology and see what I can come up with.

 

[petersonra]

I don't know how it is where you are located but around here there are a number of hybrid facilities that from the outside appear to be nursing homes, and actually are nursing homes, at least in part.

Some of them have licenses that allow them to operate as a rehab hospital and several levels of nursing home care. Some of them also offer an even lower level of care.

My wife and my mother have both been in such places the last few years. It is strange that one room is considered a "hospital" room and the room next door is not. They don't always even seem to segregate people by what it is they are there for. It is a very strange thing.

None of them seemed to have anything that looked to be a "treatment" room, although both had PT rooms, and both had doctors that came in regularly to visit at least some of the patients. I think there is some kind of requirement to be a rehab hospital that you have doctors supervision.

My dad was in a nursing home as well a few years back and they were organized the same way. He had also been in a rehab hospital before that and I could not have told you the difference.

None of the facilities looked anything at all like a traditional hospital to me.

 

[kwired]

I don't know how it is where you are located but around here there are a number of hybrid facilities that from the outside appear to be nursing homes, and actually are nursing homes, at least in part.

Some of them have licenses that allow them to operate as a rehab hospital and several levels of nursing home care. Some of them also offer an even lower level of care.

My wife and my mother have both been in such places the last few years. It is strange that one room is considered a "hospital" room and the room next door is not. They don't always even seem to segregate people by what it is they are there for. It is a very strange thing.

None of them seemed to have anything that looked to be a "treatment" room, although both had PT rooms, and both had doctors that came in regularly to visit at least some of the patients. I think there is some kind of requirement to be a rehab hospital that you have doctors supervision.

My dad was in a nursing home as well a few years back and they were organized the same way. He had also been in a rehab hospital before that and I could not have told you the difference.

None of the facilities looked anything at all like a traditional hospital to me.

If the room is a "sleeping room" it is not a room that needs to have art 517 applied to it. If it is an exam room or procedure room - you need to know more about the procedure to know how deep into 517 you may need to go.

 

[Bladnaster]

Part of the problem is the wording.

"Nursing home and limited care facility areas used exclusively for patient sleeping"

Exclusively. That is a key word to my mind.

[FONT=arial, sans-serif]Yes, this place is a health and rehabilitation center covering everything from short term stays to long term care.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, sans-serif]Anyways, something that I did notice today is that at least some of the equipment being plugged in actually has hospital grade cord caps (dialysis machine and IV in a room I was in today).

I'm questioning this more and more, and because of the key word exclusively, along with the hospital grade cords on at the very least the iv's and dialysis machines, I'm leaning towards this building actually requiring the hospital grade receptacles.[/FONT]

 

[FREEBALL]

like Kwired said most are just basic assistance w/ a nurse on duty supervising nursing aids and a visiting physician that makes health decisions. Im in nursing homes almost everyday and they are no where near the level of care of an acute care facility, I don't mean a hospital, but there are acute care facilitys other then hospitals that treat pts. For instance a company called specialty care they deal w/ pts. who are on ventilators, IV pumps, or hyperbaric etc. They would fall under 517 I believe. It was funny one time I went for a pt. and noticed that the pts. clock radio was plugged into the emergency recpt. (red) and the pts. IV pump was plugged into the normal power. I suggested they should change, just shrugged lol. I should point out I've been an electrician/mechanic since 1985 in 2000 went to college to become a paramedic and still perform electrical work for companys part time.

 

[Bladnaster]

Alright, going to have to ask a series of questions, one at a time. If it seems that some may be silly questions, I apologize. All of the jobs I have been on, outside of rare occasions, I've never really had look at the code book. Normally there are engineers, architects, general contractors and our own contractors do all the planning, decision making and lately I've been looking at is so much that my eyes are bleeding. There are certain things that I know should be addressed. Other things I'm just not sure on and I could really use some help.

First question for now.

It appears that this building was built in the 1970's. Around the year 2000 (another company owned the business at the time) they had a major renovation, and this is where I think much of the trouble with the device boxes being too deep stem's from. They did the renovations, but never updated/changed/moved the electrical. As far as I have gathered, the renovation encompassed the whole building which would explain why almost every single box is too deep.

Anyway, at what point in a renovation is one supposed to update the electrical? How far can one go with a renovation before the existing electrical can no longer be rightfully "grandfathered" in.

Yes, it is to late to do anything about it, its more of a question out of curiosity.

 

[LEO2854]

Hello

Hello Dave Welcome aboard.......

 

[Bladnaster]

Hello Dave Welcome aboard.......

Why thank you very much.

 

[kwired]

Alright, going to have to ask a series of questions, one at a time. If it seems that some may be silly questions, I apologize. All of the jobs I have been on, outside of rare occasions, I've never really had look at the code book. Normally there are engineers, architects, general contractors and our own contractors do all the planning, decision making and lately I've been looking at is so much that my eyes are bleeding. There are certain things that I know should be addressed. Other things I'm just not sure on and I could really use some help.

First question for now.

It appears that this building was built in the 1970's. Around the year 2000 (another company owned the business at the time) they had a major renovation, and this is where I think much of the trouble with the device boxes being too deep stem's from. They did the renovations, but never updated/changed/moved the electrical. As far as I have gathered, the renovation encompassed the whole building which would explain why almost every single box is too deep.

Anyway, at what point in a renovation is one supposed to update the electrical? How far can one go with a renovation before the existing electrical can no longer be rightfully "grandfathered" in.

Yes, it is to late to do anything about it, its more of a question out of curiosity.

I guess it comes down to was any electrical permits required? That would be local AHJ call. That doesn't mean code violations were not created, but possible that no AHJ ever had the opportunity to tell anyone what was done was wrong if there was never any permit to get them out to take a look at what was going on. If most of rennovation was just a facelift of walls there may not have even been any building inspector out there - again depends somewhat on if any permits were even required in the first place for that work.

 

[Bladnaster]

I guess it comes down to was any electrical permits required? That would be local AHJ call. That doesn't mean code violations were not created, but possible that no AHJ ever had the opportunity to tell anyone what was done was wrong if there was never any permit to get them out to take a look at what was going on. If most of rennovation was just a facelift of walls there may not have even been any building inspector out there - again depends somewhat on if any permits were even required in the first place for that work.

Facelift sounds about right and all I can say is wow. Its kind of scary that they can preform the amount of work they did and possibly not require a permit. It would make sense though. I can see no way possible that this place could have passed. Of course I'm still puzzled at how this place passes its yearly inspection. Outside of the flopping outlets, Ive come across many reverse polarity and a bunch of open grounds.

Next question, once again in regards to hospital grade receptacles. This question may sound a bit silly.

There are hospital grade receptacles scattered throughout this building. I feel that if this place does not require these receptacles, that they should be removed and replaced with unmarked/normal receptacles. The reason I feel this way is that these receptacles are required in certain instances and required to be wired in a certain way. To my mind, this could be misleading and a misrepresentation.

So, can a hospital grade receptacle be used in this situation but have it wired as a normal receptacle. In other words, could I just take a grounding pigtail, attach it to the box and grounding screw, and be done with it, or am I correct in that I should pull them and put in normal receptacles?

 

[Bladnaster]

Outlet from yesterday. Remembered to take a picture before I let the disgust overtake me. Thing was flopping in the wind. Not only did they just add longer screw's, the screw's were to small so that they just basically slid in and out of the holes. I have come across a few like this and I wish that I could say that this one was the worst. I really would like to know how this place has not burned down.

Thank you for suggesting pictures. I wish that I had been taking them all along.

 

[FionaZuppa]

welcome to the world of, some do it right, many do not.

my new home by Pulte hired what i thought was a good sub. while doing a tile backsplash in my kitchen i heard a little "bzzz,,,, bzzzz,,,, bzz", i ear'd it down, was coming from an outlet. i thought maybe it got damaged from use but then realized its an outlet that rarely gets used, so then i thought it might be a bad piece of hardware..... turns out the idiot person who put them in didnt tighten the screws tight, on every outlet in the kitchen!! rubber gloves, line screw driver, i tightened every one of them. i have yet to check the whole house but i suspect there are more....

but then you think, whats the root cause of problem like this? its that to work and live in the US means you need to do more work faster because the GC wont pay more per job, etc, thus the quality of work suffers. i say pay up you GC folks, pay more to get a better product !!

i just had a plumbing quote for ~16ft of 1" gas line, steel epoxy stuff in ground, a few turns, union, ball valve. "sir, that will be $898"..... i almost said "eighty-nine dollars and eighty cents?". wholly crap, $898 for 16ft and about 2hr worth of time, they didnt even need to trench as i had already done all that. i know they need to make $$ and $898 was likely a fair price i guess, but way to much for me. now i own a portable electric threading tool and saved myself $678 !