lost my article
- Thread starter difowler1
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mjf
Senior Member
I don't believe there is a maximum. I believe if you wanted to spend the $$$$ to have one custom made and listed the maximum would be infinite.
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- Placerville, CA, USA
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- Retired PV System Designer
The reason that your article got lost is that the NEC "lost" it too. Not sure what year that happened.
I guess on 2008.
MasterTheNEC
CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
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I guess I will comment on two of the comments...
There is still a 42 OCPD limit within the provisions of 408.36 Ex. 2
and the limit to the number of OCPD's to a panelboard is going to be based on the manufacturers design as noted by...not sure who now...lol . However, the reason I say this is I would not want someone thinking that since the 42 space panel could have 45 circuit breakers....if the manufacturer limits the number of spaces per their legend and listing then you still have to observe that manufacturer imposed limit per 110.3(B).
I am more than sure it was said....just wanted to make sure it was clarified.
There is still a 42 OCPD limit within the provisions of 408.36 Ex. 2
and the limit to the number of OCPD's to a panelboard is going to be based on the manufacturers design as noted by...not sure who now...lol . However, the reason I say this is I would not want someone thinking that since the 42 space panel could have 45 circuit breakers....if the manufacturer limits the number of spaces per their legend and listing then you still have to observe that manufacturer imposed limit per 110.3(B).
I am more than sure it was said....just wanted to make sure it was clarified.
kwired
Electron manager
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- NE Nebraska
I have installed 84 space NQOB panels. I think the most circuits they offer in the "Loadcenters" is 60 spaces.
2008 (pretty certain) they removed the "lighting and appliance" panelboard from the NEC. It was restricted to 42 circuits. Many older panels or models still in production since then do still have instructions with limitations of 42 or less but that is a listing and labeling restriction and not a direct NEC restriction.
James L
Senior Member
- Location
- Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
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- Electrician
Square D Homeline 40-space, 80-circuit
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...ug-on-Neutral-Ready-HOM4080M200PCVP/204836379
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...ug-on-Neutral-Ready-HOM4080M200PCVP/204836379
kwired
Electron manager
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- NE Nebraska
That is a 40 space panel that is designed to accept tandems in every space giving you 80 circuits.
A 80 space panel with 1 inch wide breakers is going to be 80 inches tall just for the portion where branch breakers are located, add a 200 main breaker on one end and the usual few inches on opposing end and you have a cabinet around 8 feet tall
Plus it is pretty much impossible to comply with 404.8(A) with all switch handles.
James L
Senior Member
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- Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
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- Electrician
Yes. That's why I wrote 40-space, 80-circuit.. split bus all the way down, fill it up with non-circuit-limiting tandems, quads, whatever you want.
Are you still using Zinsco and Sylvania panels? LOLA 80 space panel with 1 inch wide breakers is going to be 80 inches tall just for the portion where branch breakers are located, add a 200 main breaker on one end and the usual few inches on opposing end and you have a cabinet around 8 feet tall
last I knew, every panel made now has two rows of breakers. That Homeline bus is only 20 spaces tall. A true 80 space bus would only be 40 spaces tall.
kwired
Electron manager
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- NE Nebraska
Too early in the morning to think correctly
You are right would only be 40 spaces tall. I guess I had a couple recent panels I have installed clouding my mind that were in ~80 inch tall cabinets, one a 84 space NQ and another 66 space NF - but they each had 400 amp main breakers as well:slaphead:
James L
Senior Member
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- Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
- Occupation
- Electrician
Too early in the morning to think correctly
You are right would only be 40 spaces tall. I guess I had a couple recent panels I have installed clouding my mind that were in ~80 inch tall cabinets, one a 84 space NQ and another 66 space NF - but they each had 400 amp main breakers as well:slaphead:
That's ok. I need a half pot of coffee before I can truly be trusted with unassisted thinking.
The tallest panel I've put in was 72" tall (400amp 42-space).
The roof of the building was pitched, and the back wall of the place was 87" tall. Your 80" tall panel would have had to sit on the floor there lol
James L
Senior Member
- Location
- Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
- Occupation
- Electrician
Correction to my earlier post concerning non-circuit-limiting tandem breakers (for usewhen the bus isn't split).
With split bus, that Homeline panel can be filled up with circuit-limiting breakers (the ones with the little guard in the stab slot)
Finally got some coffee, my thinking is better now
With split bus, that Homeline panel can be filled up with circuit-limiting breakers (the ones with the little guard in the stab slot)
Finally got some coffee, my thinking is better now
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kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Though I know what you are talking about, some may think of the old two bus section panels that were commonly called split bus, they had main lugs spaces for up to six double poles, with one of them being the "lighting main" and it supplied the second bus, which typically had more spaces then the "mains" bus.
Does Square D even make a tandem breaker for the Homeline series that doesn't have rejection features if the panel wasn't intended to use tandems in certain positions? Homeline series is not old enough to have been around before they required this rejection feature and non-ctl breakers for other panels are intended for replacement use only.
408.54 Maximum Number of Overcurrent Devices. A panelboard shall be provided with physical means to prevent the installation of more overcurrent devices than that number for which the panelboard was designed, rated, and listed.For the purposes of this section, a 2-pole circuit breaker or fusible switch shall be considered two overcurrent devices; a 3-pole circuit breaker or fusible switch shall be considered three overcurrent devices.
James L
Senior Member
- Location
- Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
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- Electrician
Yeah, I think the proper terminology would be notched bus instead of split bus. I've seen the old two section panels, where the lower section was fed with jumper wires
I'm not sure if Square D makes a non-ctl tandem for Homeline, just an assumption on my part. I know it has an extra nub at the base of the bus, and the breakers have an indent on the bottom to account for it.. that makes it almost impossible to find other brands that will slide in all the way.
The QO series has both ctl and non-ctl. The difference is in the heel. The ctl style has a big metal hook that can only fit into panels that have a hole in the mounting rail for the hook to go in, while the non-ctl doesn't have the hook
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Just installed a Homeline panel yesterday that I previously didn't know was availabe - 42 spaces that can accept tandems in all 42, and had plug on neutral bus as well. I also didn't know they made the plug on neutral in the Homeline series.
Haven't seen the plug on neutral breakers yet, we will see how those work out later on. Looks like you need to watch where you land neutrals, EGC's if a service panel, though as when you install AFCI/GFCI's you will not have access to any behind those breakers without removing those breakers
Haven't seen the plug on neutral breakers yet, we will see how those work out later on. Looks like you need to watch where you land neutrals, EGC's if a service panel, though as when you install AFCI/GFCI's you will not have access to any behind those breakers without removing those breakers
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- Licensed Electrician
Saw one on display at the supply house, asked the counter guy about them and he said all they are making now is panels that can accept plug on neutrals.
They have all that worked out, spacing for the screws on the neutral buss is staggered.Haven't seen the plug on neutral breakers yet, we will see how those work out later on. Looks like you need to watch where you land neutrals, EGC's if a service panel, though as when you install AFCI/GFCI's you will not have access to any behind those breakers without removing those breakers
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Just the Homeline? I have been getting QO panels that are same as they have always been lately - but I haven't been doing much residential work so no need for AFCI's. I still don't like the Homeline neutral location or other competitors with similar arrangement - not so bad for first time connections when things are new, but a PIA to get to neutrals later when breakers are installed with conductors landed on them.
Like I said I haven't seen the AFCI/GFCI's yet that plug onto these neutrals, but just looking at the spacing it still looks like some terminals will get blocked by the breakers when installed, they just have a small space with no terminal at the point where the breaker connects. If you should land a conductor from another circuit at the right point of the bus you would need to remove the breaker of another circuit to access it I would think.
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