What Wiring Problems Have AFCIs Uncovered

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What Wiring Problems Have AFCIs Uncovered


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big john

Senior Member
Location
Portland, ME
With all this talk about AFCIs it occurs to me that maybe my opinion is stubborn and no longer based in reality.

So I'm interested in seeing what wiring defects you have found with the help of tripping AFCIs.

Please vote for the answers that most closely match your experiences.
 

big john

Senior Member
Location
Portland, ME
And because I'm a genius, what are the odds a moderator can un-screw that redundancy and the spelling mistake in the title...?

:slaphead::slaphead::slaphead:
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
Back in the single digit years of the new millennium I trouble shot a lot of AFCI problems. Every one of them were caused by wiring errors except for the couple of cases of a bare touching the neutral screw on a recpt. Bootleg neutrals, miswired breakers, sloppy stupid errors all over the county.

I thought there's nothing wrong with arc faults there is just a bunch of lousy electrical wiring going on out there that these guys can't get with away more. I still haven't had any problems with the first generation AFCI's; I have some in my house.

Now when the combo AFCI's came out, that is another chapter in the book.... I had nuisance trips on two different houses with different brands of breakers. I was just at one of the houses this week changing a breaker that started tripping at night. The only thing on the circuit are lights. Everything worked fine for three years.

My opinion on AFCI's was not stubborn, it was optimistic. Now it is settled, I don't like them, I don't trust them, they stink.
 

big john

Senior Member
Location
Portland, ME
Back in the single digit years of the new millennium I trouble shot a lot of AFCI problems. Every one of them were caused by wiring errors except for the couple of cases of a bare touching the neutral screw on a recpt. Bootleg neutrals, miswired breakers, sloppy stupid errors all over the county.
Agreed, I saw the same thing. My issue is that with literally 1 unexplained exception, all the problems I found were easily identifiable ground faults where an AFCI would not have been necessary.

I'm mostly curious to learn if in the interim since I've left residential work whether AFCIs have actually been tripping on loose, burned, arcing or any other type of connection that may have legitimately created a fire hazard.
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
With AFCIs' is the same story as when GFCIs first came out, they made liars out of lot of electricians (attribute that comment to Earl Roberts in his excellent book Overcurrents and Undercurrents) due to mispacked boxes and neutral to ground connections. I fault the AFCI industry for not explaining this. Recently, UL and NEMA have come out with a training class on how to install AFCIs...
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
Agreed, I saw the same thing. My issue is that with literally 1 unexplained exception, all the problems I found were easily identifiable ground faults where an AFCI would not have been necessary.

I'm mostly curious to learn if in the interim since I've left residential work whether AFCIs have actually been tripping on loose, burned, arcing or any other type of connection that may have legitimately created a fire hazard.

I'm sure most here have seen this, but just in case, here it is again......

 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
With AFCIs' is the same story as when GFCIs first came out, they made liars out of lot of electricians (attribute that comment to Earl Roberts in his excellent book Overcurrents and Undercurrents) due to mispacked boxes and neutral to ground connections. I fault the AFCI industry for not explaining this. Recently, UL and NEMA have come out with a training class on how to install AFCIs...
And I'm calling BS. GFCI's and ground faults themselves are easy to document, easy to trace, easy to induce, easy to test objectively. Set the level that is acceptable and make a device that will kick out once that level is exceeded. Done.

Arc fault instead of normal arc, instead of electronic distortion, instead of radio interference, instead of something we didn't know about yet, and still make sure it trips when there is a fire causing arc but does not trip when there is something that only looks like a fire causing arc and then making a new breaker to cover that....not so easy.

The only folks I see defending AFCI's are those who are fascinated with the technology and those who say, "Hang in there, they will get better." I'm okay with either position as long as the law of the land will ease up on forcing the purchase and installation of them.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Recently, UL and NEMA have come out with a training class on how to install AFCIs...

Nice. :roll:

So what they are saying is that the product is fine we are just to0 frigging stupid to install them.

How does that explain the UL listed appliances that trip properly wired AFCI. Treadmills and vacuum cleaners seem to do this a lot based on the posts we see.
 
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mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
I believe AFCIs with GFP have uncovered well over a dozen problems that involve wiring errors, over driven staples, damaged insulation, defective devices, crossed circuits, high impedance faults to ground and yes arc faults to ground. All of which are code violations, shock hazards, create magnetic fields and are fire hazards in themselves one way or another. Thus, a myriad or problems are brought to attention and corrected via GFP that a normal breaker would miss.

So in that regard GFP catches the brunt of the errors produced by sloppy electricians as well as occasional mistakes even the best electricians can make by accident. Further, as long as the GFP remains functional, protection is offered long after construction has finished. Any event involving ground is cleared, signaling a problem.

Thus I would say an AFCI with GFP or just plain GFP is a giant step forward in electrical safety.

The biggest advantage is that GFP alone is not prone to nuisance tripping. Chances are, if it trips, a contingency has occurred in the circuit.


As for the arc logic itself and AFCIs without GFP its up for debate. Arc logic catches only current ripple events, and that detection is only as good as manufacturers can make it. Arc logic will not catch anything that does not involve an arc signature. Those none arc events are: high resistance hot to ground faults; neutral to ground faults; splices submerged or in contact with water; crossed hots or neutrals between circuits; shock/fire hazards such as current leaking onto unintended paths via damaged insulation onto pipes or metal ducts not possessing a low impedance path back to the source. All real world hazards arc logic will not detect. I will even go on a stretch to say that 30ma and below GFP can protect life and property to some degree with a ground fault and open EGC occurring simultaneously.

So with GFP aside we have rare events like series arcs caused by (for example)a loose device terminal; or parallel arcs like a hot to neutral arc fault not involving ground. So arc logic if perfected could detect an overdriven staple in NM without a ground or where the staple does not involve the EGC. Outside of this I cant think of where a parallel arc fault condition might occur in branch circuit wiring itself.

As for terminals, sustaining a series arc there is difficult, and the biggest revelation comes that nearly all loose connections result in glowing high resistance points, not arc signatures. A glowing connection is something neither AFCI, GFP or standard protection will catch, yet remains Id say the biggest cause of electrical fires.

So with that said both series, parallel and arcs themselves are still something being understood in the role of fire safety or flat out misunderstood.

I also want to point out for those who might be reading this post for the first time with no background that parallel arcs can be detected without an AFCI. That's right, all it takes is lowering the magnetic trip threshold in a breaker. So that overdriven staple not involving ground will be cleared successfully, without an AFCI.

http://paceforensic.com/pdfs/Circuit_Breakers_The_Myth_of_Safety.pdf



Arc fault logic may have a benefit outside the wall with cords involving series arcs, something that GFP or low magnetic trip will not catch. I can see a cord being able to hold a series arc under the right conditions like furniture rocking on it, as well as a parallel arc condition not involving ground.

But, real world evidence of that resulting in fires or frequency of occurrence...?

However in all the above scenarios, we are assuming the logic is perfected and will not nuisance trip. At this point that is not the case. It is definitely not, and will not be with the limited computing power or the still being understood phenomenon of detecting arcs. Its a work in progress.

Series arc faults are rare in hard wiring, and parallel arc faults might be the same but heck low magnetic trip will cover that, while the rest and than some will accurately be detected with GFP at no nuisance trip cost.

In light of all this is arc logic really worth the headache, money and effort? IMO no way.


Rather than try to reinvent what is already perfected, why don't AFCIs proponents and the CMP turn to other first world countries which bear lower fire statics. Because I can promise that you are years behind.


How do they do it? Without AFCIs!


1. First RCDs (GFP) is on nearly all branch circuits. Not at outlets, but originating in the electrical panel. This has been required for over 30 years in most places yet the US and Canada are the only first world countries still acting like its inconceivable.


So right there 100% of arcing ground faults are caught along with other benefits GFP brings. You don't need cotton balls to prove that.

2. Breakers for general use circuits have lower magnetic trip thresholds.


So right there a parallel arc fault will not likely continue unrestrained.


At this point for 30 years other countries have been using pretty much what is a none combination AFCI on all branch circuits without listed appliances tripping them.

3. Testing of circuits and no backstabbed outlets, which also provide another layer of benefit...


But discarding everything stated so far I want to bring forward the biggest cause of electrical fires: glowing connections. If this issue was addressed, only then would we see a real decline in electrical fires.

In 2015 I still see nothing to address them if not encouraging them like backstabbed outlets despite a well respected study done in the 70s on them.

Sorry for the rant, just needed a place to put this. :ashamed1:
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
To the OP, the diagnostics we employ either go the gfpe route, or microprocessor insult route .

The test switch is useless .

~RJ~
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
I'm told (operative term) it operates the same as a GFCI John

Should you find UL writings to the contrary, please post them

~RJ~
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
I have done many projects where panels were relocated and or outlets added to existing circuits where AFCI have been added.
Some of the installs resulted in tripping AFCI's. In each instance where there was no Ground touching a neutral or bootleg neutral a arcing connection was found. Those included backstabbed outlets that had portable heaters used as full time heating. Some were from loose fixture wire connections done by a DIY.

Do I believe these breakers are partly a nuisance YES!!!!

do they cost me troubleshoot money that is difficult to recover from the owner.... YES!!!

Since we must use them am I concerned that the GFI portion of these devices may be going away. YES

Will I consider using them in the future in a remodel YES if I can get away with it......

Am I a fan of AFCI NO!!!! However they do seem to find wiring issues. I have had no complaints after the problems detected. I have not had HAM radio issues.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
In my opinion, there is a category missing in the choices for this pole, i.e., AFCI operation caused by Utilization Equipment.

I had a finish carpenter trying to use a brand new Hitachi compound miter saw, where the saw itself was the cause.

I've had several clients correct AFCI trips by installing dimmer compatible lamps, after playing 20 questions on the phone with them, many months after my install, when the first nuisance trip occurred while the client was re-lamping. (It never ceases to amaze me how mystifying all the lamp choices are to my clients.)
 
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