Temp power to office trailer

[david]

Does nec state you need a disconect located at a temp trailer ?
As of now the disconecting means is inside the building .

All ungrounded conductots are simontanusly disconeted with a two pole Ocp .

To answer your questin in the state of PA 550.4 most likely would be applied to your installation, and it very well could be differant in your state.

 

[iwire]

The question becomes why did the NEC 550.4) address contractor?s on-site offices, construction job dormitories, mobile studio dressing rooms, banks, clinics, mobile stores, or intended for the display or demonstration of merchandise or machinery

David, In my opinion the only thing 550.4 tells us is this.

If a contractor decides to roll a mobile home on site and use it as an office that we still have to treat it as a mobile home. The use of the mobile home does not change the fact that it is, was and will remain a mobile home.

The 1950s, the industry and HUD really have nothing to do with the wording we are discussing.

Nothing you have posted has changed my a opinion. An office trailer that was never constructed to be a mobile home does not fall under 550 in the least.

 

[david]

David, In my opinion the only thing 550.4 tells us is this.

If a contractor decides to roll a mobile home on site and use it as an office that we still have to treat it as a mobile home. The use of the mobile home does not change the fact that it is, was and will remain a mobile home.

The 1950s, the industry and HUD really have nothing to do with the wording we are discussing.

Nothing you have posted has changed my a opinion. An office trailer that was never constructed to be a mobile home does not fall under 550 in the least.

So you do not recognize that article 550.4 uses the mandatory rule ?shall ?

And if that is so that is your prerogative. Others may want to consider if the mandatory rule is there or not.

 

[iwire]

Since we are talking about electrical provisions I would say a manufactured trailer with an electrical system including electrical supply provisions.

Which is a fine opinion but no more than that. Job trailer is undefined term.

No, but I took it that we were discussing the typical office type job trailer.

You mean a manufactured building?

Somewhere I have a picture of the tag stating such. I will try to find it.

I would recognize that a manufactured mobile home that was designed to be used as a dwelling could be placed on construction site and be used as a job trailer.

And I agree it could and if it is 550 applies.

I would also recognize that this section addresses manufactured mobile homes supplied by 120/240 volt systems that did not have all the provisions or circuitry that would qualify there use as a single family dwelling could likewise be used as a job trailer on a construction site.

I don't see that at al,l but to me that is also not on point.

I would also recognize that 550.4 addresses manufactured mobile homes that could be supplied by other voltage systems such as 480/277 though not specifically called out in this section the supply voltage on these manufactured mobile homes was not limited to 240/120

Respectfully I do not see that as having anything to do with this discussion.

I would be left to conclude 550.4 only addressed manufactured mobile homes not intended to be dwelling units because of circuitry and other dwelling provisions where being manufactured as offices, clinics, job trailers and so on. when supplied by 240/120 volt system

Respectfully I see that as your own creation and not in 550.4

I would go back to 550.1 and struggle with how I get from 550.1 to include 550.4 .

There is no struggle if you only apply 550.4 to mobile homes and not try to extend its reach to trailers that are not mobile homes.

The problem with that is each state can regulate what is or is not tagged as a manufactured building

How is that a problem?

Often I see multiple acceptance state acceptance stickers on these units.

From the hand book commentary article 545

?Manufactured homes are built on a chassis and installed on site with or without a permanent foundation. Manufactured buildings are generally constructed within a factory or assembly plant and then transported to the building site.

They are not built on a chassis and are designed to be installed on a permanent foundation. ?

This is not the only example of the handbook overstepping the code rules.

the code cannot be concerned with what each state individually does

I agree, yet that changes nothing. States deviate from the NEC all time.

 

[iwire]

So you do not recognize that article 550.4 uses the mandatory rule ?shall ?

I certainly recognize and understand what 'shall' means.

But that 'shall' only applies to trailers that are mobile homes to start with.

550.4 does not say All job trailers shall be ... It says Mobile Homes used as job trailers shall be ....

To me this is the exact spot you are placing the cart before the horse.

 

[iwire]

Before I am called out on the above let me make clear I was parphrasing, that is why it was not a quote.

Here is what I am discussing from the 2011 NEC.

550.4 General Requirements.
(A) Mobile Home Not Intended as a Dwelling Unit. A
mobile home not intended as a dwelling unit ? for example,
those equipped for sleeping purposes only, contractor?s
on-site offices, construction job dormitories, mobile
studio dressing rooms, banks, clinics, mobile stores, or intended
for the display or demonstration of merchandise or
machinery ?

A mobile home is a specific thing is it not?

A mobile home will have some sort of paperwork / labeling indicating it is a mobile home will it not?

So if someone rolls up on site with a trailer that it's labeling shows it is a mobile home ...... even those equipped for sleeping purposes only, contractor?s on-site offices, etc 550 applies.

We cannot apply article 550 to things that are not mobile homes.

 

[iwire]

I have never wired a mobile home and only been inside a couple.

How does an inspector determine what is a mobile home?

I am assuming there is paperwork and labeling stating it is?

But maybe I am wrong to assume that.

 

[kwired]

Before I am called out on the above let me make clear I was parphrasing, that is why it was not a quote.

Here is what I am discussing from the 2011 NEC.



A mobile home is a specific thing is it not?

A mobile home will have some sort of paperwork / labeling indicating it is a mobile home will it not?

So if someone rolls up on site with a trailer that it's labeling shows it is a mobile home ...... even those equipped for sleeping purposes only, contractor?s on-site offices, etc 550 applies.

We cannot apply article 550 to things that are not mobile homes.

I agree with most of what you have said in this thread.

The NEC definition of mobile home (in 550.2) contains the words "designed to be used as a dwelling". To me that means if it were not initially designed or intended to be a dwelling it is not a mobile home. That means 550.4(A) has to be about a structure originally designed and intended to be used as a dwelling that also meets "mobile home" criteria that has been re-purposed for another function such as jobsite office, dormitory, temporary classroom, etc. I know one of the area scrap metal buyers has an old mobile home being used as an office/scale house at their scrapyard, and we once had a bar in a nearby town that operated inside a former mobile home - I won't go into all the commentary that went along with that one, and quite frankly am a little amazed the fire marshal even approved such use of that building, but that has been maybe 20 years ago and maybe wouldn't happen today.

 

[ActionDave]

I have never wired a mobile home and only been inside a couple.

How does an inspector determine what is a mobile home?

I am assuming there is paperwork and labeling stating it is?

But maybe I am wrong to assume that.

There is a sticker on new ones. On old ones they are worn off and you just have to tell by looking.

 

[kwired]

There is a sticker on new ones. On old ones they are worn off and you just have to tell by looking.

Actually the older ones had a metal plate with info engraved on it. Newer stickers just fade and eventually you can no longer read them.

 

[ActionDave]

I have never wired a mobile home and only been inside a couple....

You probably never played a game of horseshoes or spent the day shooting prairie dogs either. Got get you out of the city for a few weeks. It clears the mind in a good way. Helps improve one's taste in music too.

 

[iwire]

You probably never played a game of horseshoes

Whoa there bud, that was a staple of the family summer parties.

or spent the day shooting prairie dogs either.

You are right there. I have only gone target shooting.

Got get you out of the city for a few weeks. It clears the mind in a good way.

I live in a built up area but we have mobile home parks nearby and good sized farms near by.

Helps improve one's taste in music too.

:lol:

 

[david]

I have never wired a mobile home and only been inside a couple.

How does an inspector determine what is a mobile home?

I am assuming there is paperwork and labeling stating it is?

But maybe I am wrong to assume that.

I would say that is the problem NFPA wrote an article addressing a manufactured product what NFPA viewed (defined) a mobile home as. Then in 550.4 recognized that manufactures where manufacturing trailers under the seal of mobile homes that was only subjective to what each state individually allowed
And try to address a shifting target with a mandatory rule shall.

I see NFPA 550 seeing the same safety concerns for manufactured mobile home dwellings as manufacture job trailers.

A metal chasse is the same on a manufactured dwelling with a distribution panel as a manufactured job trailer with a distribution panel. Most manufactured job trailers have a metal sheeting resembling the old mobile home sheeting

It is my view 550.4 is intended to direct the supply to these manufactured trailers to the rules that would require a four wire feeder and insulated equipment ground and so forth.

Most likely the instructions by a manufacture of a job trailer that comes with electrical provisions are going to mirror the requirements in article 550.

550.4 was trying to address these shifting targets

 

[david]

I agree with most of what you have said in this thread.

The NEC definition of mobile home (in 550.2) contains the words "designed to be used as a dwelling". To me that means if it were not initially designed or intended to be a dwelling it is not a mobile home. That means 550.4(A) has to be about a structure originally designed and intended to be used as a dwelling that also meets "mobile home" criteria that has been re-purposed for another function

I would like to be able to come to that conclusion sure would help simplify 550.4
I can see how one feels that way, I have in the past as well, one automatically associates the term mobile home with one designed to be used as a dwelling.

550.4 says not intended to be used as and one could conclude it was still designed to be used as a dwelling at the manufacturing facility, except dwelling is defined in article 100. And 550.4 says it can have in design only be equipped for sleeping purposes, ?shall not be required to meet the provisions of this article pertaining to the number or capacity of circuits required for? (dwelling).

To me it is clear that the article only applies to the ones manufactured, the whole article addressed them as they left the manufacturing facility.

 

[kwired]

I would like to be able to come to that conclusion sure would help simplify 550.4
I can see how one feels that way, I have in the past as well, one automatically associates the term mobile home with one designed to be used as a dwelling.

550.4 says not intended to be used as and one could conclude it was still designed to be used as a dwelling at the manufacturing facility, except dwelling is defined in article 100. And 550.4 says it can have in design only be equipped for sleeping purposes, ?shall not be required to meet the provisions of this article pertaining to the number or capacity of circuits required for? (dwelling).

To me it is clear that the article only applies to the ones manufactured, the whole article addressed them as they left the manufacturing facility.

If it is initially manufactured for purpose of being something other then a dwelling, how is it a mobile home by definition of mobile home in 550.2?

If it was originally manufactured for purpose of being a dwelling but is now being used for other purposes then 550.4(A) can kick in.

If CMP's intent is to have all buildings that are portable in nature to have similar requirements when it comes to the main supply to the building- then they maybe need to rewrite art 550 and at very least divide it into general, dwelling and non dwelling sections and possible even change the name to eliminate "home" from the title.

Until they do that, it is what it is.

 

[iwire]

I can see how one feels that way, I have in the past as well, one automatically associates the term mobile home with one designed to be used as a dwelling.

That is not how I feel in the least.:happyno:

I am fine with mobile homes being designed for other purposes and if the label says it is a mobile home than article 550 applies to regardless of use.

However when the structure/trailer is not labeled as a mobile home article 550 does not apply. If you were accept this it removes your struggle of trying to reconcile 550.1 with 550.4

 

[david]

If it is initially manufactured for purpose of being something other then a dwelling, how is it a mobile home by definition of mobile home in 550.2?

If it was originally manufactured for purpose of being a dwelling but is now being used for other purposes then 550.4(A) can kick in.

If CMP's intent is to have all buildings that are portable in nature to have similar requirements when it comes to the main supply to the building- then they maybe need to rewrite art 550 and at very least divide it into general, dwelling and non dwelling sections and possible even change the name to eliminate "home" from the title.

Until they do that, it is what it is.

Ok , then 550.4 does not need to be in the article, and if it wasn?t there it would not change how the article addressed manufactured mobile homes designed to be used as dwelling, They could still be used from NFPA 70 perspective as non dwelling purposes.

And as you say, "it is what it is"

 

[iwire]

David, you quoted my post asking some very straight forward questions and instead of answering any of them you went off in a different direction. I find this frustrating.

I would say that is the problem NFPA wrote an article addressing a manufactured product what NFPA viewed (defined) a mobile home as. Then in 550.4 recognized that manufactures where manufacturing trailers under the seal of mobile homes that was only subjective to what each state individually allowed
And try to address a shifting target with a mandatory rule shall.

We covered this and I disagree with your assumptions.

I see NFPA 550 seeing the same safety concerns for manufactured mobile home dwellings as manufacture job trailers.

I am pretty clear you feel that way, I just don't see any NEC code to back that up when the structure in question is not labeled as a mobile home.

A metal chasse is the same on a manufactured dwelling with a distribution panel as a manufactured job trailer with a distribution panel. Most manufactured job trailers have a metal sheeting resembling the old mobile home sheeting

And it is also very similar to an RV but yet separate articles apply.

It is my view 550.4 is intended to direct the supply to these manufactured trailers to the rules that would require a four wire feeder and insulated equipment ground and so forth.

Part II of article 225 pretty much does that.

Most likely the instructions by a manufacture of a job trailer that comes with electrical provisions are going to mirror the requirements in article 550.

The discussion is about what 550.4 requires.

550.4 was trying to address these shifting targets

You have presented no evidence to back that up.

 

[iwire]

Ok , then 550.4 does not need to be in the article,

It has a a purpose, it allows a mobile home manufacturer to build a office trailer or 'bunk house' without the required dwelling unit electrical circuits and still be labeled as a mobile home.

But those are not the type of units I am finding in the real world.

 

[kwired]

550.4 IMO doesn't really need to be there other then the fact the structure still has a nameplate somewhere that says it is a mobile home. Otherwise if you are using 550.4 it is because you are no longer using it as a dwelling - which is part of the definition of a mobile home. You are in effect re-purposing something originally created for another purpose. They maybe should have dealt with that situation differently then they did, but bottom line is you really don't have a mobile home anymore yet you still have a nameplate that says you do.

I guess I should add if you don't make any modifications to the building, or at least none that are non art 550 compliant, then you still have a mobile home should you return the use of the building back to a dwelling.