Reverse polarity, what's my liability?

[ritelec]

Was hired to replace an old noisy bath fan light. Cheap builder special. Gave price over phone not much and mentioned if there was access from the top and the old one came right out and the new one went right in. Well of course it didn't but wasn't too major so the new one went in.

The question is.

I turned off the two switches at a four switch gang box to work on the fan/light. Removed the 3 wire from the old unit. Mounted new unit. Slid 3 wire into new unit. As I was setting up for splice the white wire hit fan chassis and sparked. Yep white's hot and black and red were switched neutral.

Opened 4 gang box the other 2 switches fed a vanity and shower light. Colors were right. There was a bx to rx splice box in attic area by fan/light. Opened it colors are right. Mentioned this to home owner and he said a handyman replaced a light in the hall and mentioned about reverse polarity.

So I replaced the fan/light. I mentioned I could look to correct the problem which could take ten minutes or several hours.
They asked if it was dangerous as it's been that way since the bathroom was done over twenty years ago.
I mentioned it could be. To realize the switch doesn't de energize the lights (including the shower) and not to change the bulb barefooted. And asked again if they wanted me to locate the problem. No yes.
On the way home called again to thank them for the work and to ask them again if they would like me to look into the problem. No yes.


So how liable am I ?
Should I have disconnected the wires to the fan/light that I installed and unless I fix the problem I'm not going to hook it up.

Should it have fallen into the "as long as the other comes right out and the new goes back in" or should I have looked for the problem as it was part of the fan install. Or lose a little sleep over it but it will be ok for another 20 yrs and nothing will happen. Argh.



Did a little work on a fountain area last year summer. Charged for material and not my rate for several hours to get lights on at this area. Rusted tripping gfci receptacle. Dirt water filled light sockets. Boxes at dirt level rusty dirty wet ... Shorted pump motor. I replaced gfci. Replaced sockets and cleared hot to ground and neutral to ground shorts. Mentioned to owner about the rusting boxes with existing rusted in switches. The mushroom effect. The more I touched the more that would need to be replaced. So she was up and working.

Got a call yesterday that it is not working again. I mentioned that I would dig that area up expose the wiring to that area and rewire everything, new boxes, switches etc.. as I couldn't promise if I tried reworking that area as I did before all would be fine and she wouldn't be calling me back again in a couple months.
I gave her a "ball park" what she might be looking at. Nothing steep but she mentioned that was to much where all she wants is " just a light " to light her fountain.


We both decided it best she call someone else.

I called her back an hour later.
I told her I'll come out at no expense and try to dry things out one last time the way it is.

Do a lot of you guys do free work ? Argh.


Thank you for letting me vent.

 

[ELETREK787]

No

 

[sparkyrick]

You were the last electrician to work on the fan.
You discovered it wasn't wired correctly.
You inform the homeowner of the NEC violation, but the homeowner decides not to spend the extra money to correct the violation.
You, as a licensed electrician, decide to install the fan using the switched neutrals.


I'm betting if something really bad happens now, the layers will be beating down your door.

 

[readydave8]

"Do you guys do free work?"

I have, just like you trying to keep customer happy. Now I try to avoid that. I felt like I was helping people pay for their luxuries.

 

[ritelec]

You were the last electrician to work on the fan.
You discovered it wasn't wired correctly.
You inform the homeowner of the NEC violation, but the homeowner decides not to spend the extra money to correct the violation.
You, as a licensed electrician, decide to install the fan using the switched neutrals.


I'm betting if something really bad happens now, the layers will be beating down your door.

I totally understand your point...totally... If I changed a switch that was fed with knob and tube, would I be in the wrong because it wasn't grounded, and maybe even reverse polarity? the same job had a light that the owner said was blinking.. I checked a couple 3 way switches feeding it.......totally packed boxes of old cloth bx... one switch sounded weird?? so I replaced it.... Being a licensed electrician now am I liable I because I replaced a possible bum switch.. I undid the two nuts at the fixture to drop the fixture and examine the splice for a bad connection. there was no box and the fixture bracket was screwed to the ceiling... Am I now responsible for that?? (that parts alittle weird too as the 2 - 3 ways were in boxes but no box at the light.. maybe someone moved it over when resheatrocking one day, maybe there's a splice there??? Can't save the world, Crazy..).. seems like everywhere you turn (or at least me) there's something not right that you "saw" or "touched" INSANE

 

[__dan]

After many years I reached a point where I realized I could no longer, in general routinely, service other people's work. It was more than one too many times of opening up something and seeing (screaming) 'someone's trying to kill me'. That was back in the late 1990's when I had seen one too many. It has gotten worse since.

Bid a simple AC unit install at some el cheapo millionaire's old mansion on a Saturday morning. Went out for material and by the time I got back the gardener was wiring the unit and telling me " see, you don't need a direct line". "I can just tie it on this (light, outlet) circuit".

Code is there not for one install, but for millions of same installs nationwide. And when one out of a million fails and hurts someone, it will be checked and if it meets code you are in the clear and the insurance will pay (after first denying the claim). If it does not meet code for any reason, even something nearby and unrelated, you/it will be on the six o'clock news.

I am thinking I might have been quick to say "I found this and I cannot tie it back in or repower it until I am sure it meets code". Have done that before and the homeowner did the final tie in.

Changed a bad outlet on a pool once and because of the condition, something I saw did not meet code, I told the homeowner I would do it but "I was never here". Somehow at a later date he called me back for something and I also had to fix whatever was wrong with the pool outlet (he was not offering to pay). I told him "as I said previously, I was never there". Shortly after that I was at the town hall for something else and the inspector asked me "what was I doing wiring pools without a permit". I told him the truth, I changed the bad outlet at the owners request informing the owner that the pool outlet did not meet current code for some reason, that the owner agreed I would change the outlet under the condition that "I was never there". I told the inspector that as a repair under $200, I did not think the permit was necessary.

Fact is, the market in general is doing hack work and when they want a seemingly simple repair years later, they don't want to pay to have it ripped completely out and done right. They want it done right for nothing.

To answer your question, I don't know what your liability is. It's an immediate red flag as soon as I see the owner is hiring non professional labor to save a buck for anything. If they want to save a buck they would do it once right the first time.

Opened up a 2000 amp MDP one time to run a new feeder out of. I looked at this #12 solid TW going in a circle around the top of it and thought "mmm, must be nothing going nowhere" so I'm in there roughhousing it. Couple days later I had seen a few more things that I knew were not nothing so I checked the source of the #12. Had to open the covers on the adjacent 2000 A main and peek in. It went right under one of the line side lugs :blink:.

 

[electricalist]

What i have noticed from an employee side is that any time a price and can we do it is given over the phone the worse the problem is..Our work orders for service calls all state this is a quick quote and subject to field verification as well as only good for 7 days.
I also find the more money they have the less willing they are to part with it..We wired a Dallas Cowboys house and when it came time to install some $ 20k fixture they actually wanted me to build something to hold the fixture in the back of my truck then take it to the new house instead of paying to have it moved. Then another house we installed a few hundred mr 16 tripple cans and they thought we warranty the bulbs...The can cost no telling how much but they want free bulbs,.

 

[ritelec]

the layers will be beating down your door.

Ya never know but no layers today

Polarity found and fixed :- )

 

[Upnorth]

Whenever you pull a permit, it's an opportunity for the inspector to look at the work and anything connected to it, and it won't matter who messed it up or how long it's been there, if it's found to be an illegal installation.

Even if you don't need/get a permit, and something "bad" happens later, you're going to be the "last person who touched it", so you should treat EVERY job as if you were your own inspector. Works the other way as well; if you "fixed things" and they were mysteriously "unfixed" a year after you left, causing a fire/injury/death, who has the burden of proving the defense that "it wasn't anything *I* did"? Document your findings, take a picture.

 

[YourElectricianOC]

It's the customer's home, but the second they hire you, consider it yours. Whether they like it or not, a code violation you find has to either be fixed at additional cost, or placed in a safe condition (disconnected/tagged/documented). There is no option to leave 'as-is'.

I was running into similar issues once upon a time, and a wise contractor told me "double your prices, and you won't dare think about leaving a code violation"

Funny, it doesn't seem to matter how well a guy knows the NEC, if he's charging too little, his work leaves something to be desired. I've met some brilliant electricians who left some shady work behind simply because they thought they were pinned down by a lack of money in the job.

 

[sparkyrick]

Ya never know but no layers today

Polarity found and fixed :- )

Ha! I didn't catch that. Thanks.

 

[electricalist]

As I read this thread again, indeed it's a sad situation.
I recently worked on a house that is a mess.
Customers will often say no to making something right If it works already, now when it's rental property they say fix it cause they don't want the liability .
I do plenty of free work. Mostly because I like the work, some because I feel like if I show good faith and look for the win win situation then I'll make up the loss. Some because it needs to be addressed and I know or think they can't afford it. Some just because.

 

[ritelec]

I must add. I was at the panel location in the basement. I smelled natural gas. Am I responsible fir that too.

I kept my mouth shut.

Oh and on the way to the panel I noticed that there was no gec at the water meter.

And a few of the breakers where alittle rusty.

And tandems in the panel that I took the cover off of

And 14 wire on 20 amp breakers.

And a box that I opened with brittle wire in it that I had to tape.



No kidding.



What are my responsibilities. Sick I say. Sick. !!!

 

[ActionDave]

What are my responsibilities....

Do the job you were asked to do, inform the customer of anything you find wrong and let them decide. It's not your job to fix the whole house. That's my take on it anyway.

 

[__dan]

Code compliance and safety are the owner's responsibility. They hire licensed contractor's in their trade specialty as effort to show diligence in meeting this responsibility. However, they cannot consent to spend money on repairs and upgrades they are unaware of, or take thought and action on presently undiscovered deficiencies.

If you did not cause these deficiencies, it may be some defense. But when the other party does not want to pay, or wants something for nothing (from everyone else, and as it happens today, plays sharply, lies), you need to make their case difficult or impossible to prove (that you should pay).

I would write a letter to the owner stating exactly what your post says:

Your name, working at designated site, in the normal course of your duties encountered, discovered, electrical deficiencies and instances that do not meet current code. In your opinion, it is advisable that repairs and upgrades to mitigate deficiencies be done to meet current NEC compliance. Instances cited:

Failed water main bond and ground.
Corrosion, rust, water damage, present at the Main panel.
Breakers installed that are not the correct size for the wire.

It would be your discretion how much or how little detail. You want to write enough to disclosed deficiencies found, that you would advise fixing. But not write so much the customer's head explodes.

I would feel obligated to disclose hazards and/or fraud from past work done that does not meet code. It's hard to say what is a hazard or unsafe. It would not be your position to determine that. Stating simply, what does not meet code (with code cites if you wish) places the responsibility properly where it begins and ends, with the owner.

In the future, your letter could show you were diligent and tried to mitigate something bad happening (You have a duty to mitigate damage). Just as, in the future, the owner would show he was diligent by hiring licensed professionals (then something bad happened).

I don't take a risk the one out of a million will not happen to me. I take steps that if the foreseeable does happen, I have a previously written letter where I stated my concerns (with code citations), and advised that work done meet code, industry standards, or manufacturer's instructions.