Should the NEC ditch grounding electrodes?

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mbrooke

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Should the NEC remove grounding electrode requirements from the code? If the earth is not an effective ground fault current path, then why keep them?


Note, this would not remove the bonding requirements of water pipes, rebar and building steel for the purpose of clearing a fault should they become inadvertently energized.
 

K8MHZ

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The electrodes are not meant to clear a fault.

Most people don't realize that the electrodes at each service, transformer pole, light pole, etc., are part of an entire system all connected together to accomplish their mission.

A primary part of that mission is to have a voltage reference. The myriad electrodes provide this.
 

Dennis Alwon

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A grounding electrode can be useful, such as underground water pipes, concrete encased electrode, etc, although most ground rods are not very effective. There is no way that requirement will go away. As stated above it is not to clear faults but to help with dissipation of surges from spikes and lightning
 

mbrooke

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The electrodes are not meant to clear a fault.

Most people don't realize that the electrodes at each service, transformer pole, light pole, etc., are part of an entire system all connected together to accomplish their mission.

A primary part of that mission is to have a voltage reference. The myriad electrodes provide this.

Voltage reference to what? :huh:
 

iwire

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Should the NEC remove grounding electrode requirements from the code? If the earth is not an effective ground fault current path, then why keep them?

I suspect you are already well aware of this but this is what the NEC says* grounding electrodes are for.



  1. Lightning.
  2. Line surges.
  3. Unintentional contact with higher-voltage lines.
  4. Stabilize the voltage to earth during normal operation.

It seems to me items 1 and 3 are kind of important functions grounding electrodes can help with. The others I am not so sure.

But if you want the NEC to dump electrodes you would have to show they do not perform any of those functions.



* See 250.4(A)(1)
 

mbrooke

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I suspect you are already well aware of this but this is what the NEC says* grounding electrodes are for.



  1. Lightning.
  2. Line surges.
  3. Unintentional contact with higher-voltage lines.
  4. Stabilize the voltage to earth during normal operation.

It seems to me items 1 and 3 are kind of important functions grounding electrodes can help with. The others I am not so sure.

But if you want the NEC to dump electrodes you would have to show they do not perform any of those functions.



* See 250.4(A)(1)


True, but how much do they really help with that, especially when most ground rods are over 25 ohms?



1. Lightening


If a home is struck by lighting, I don't see ground rods mitigating the energy. Damage will still occur. In fact lighting is more likely to find another path to ground as it is a high frequency pulse of energy. Lighting is less likely to travel to a well casing further away then a high resistance ground rod closer by.

2. Line surges

These are caused by many things, but they are always phase to phase or phase to neutral, most of them caused by elevated current spikes on the primary of the transformer. Other than perhaps lighting, I cant think of any surge just going to ground.

3. Incidental contact with higher voltages.

This may have some merit in one cases*. But other than that if the neutral became energized the equal potential system in the home will keep everything at similar potentials. Everything else will be energized relative to earth soil unless you are physically standing on the ground rod. If the hots had an over voltage nothing would change, equipment will still be damaged as current will still go out through the neutral, and even then the ground rod.

*Now, I could see a case where a primary fall on a broken MGN. Assuming a 25 ohm ground rod at 7,200 ohms this would draw about 280 amps, so if the feeder is protected with a fuse under 100amps like a 65K link the hazard will be removed a lot faster, but that assumes the ground rod is the only source back to the substation.


4. Stabilize the voltage to earth.

This I don't buy. Yes the system is loosely coupled via capacitance to earth, but the majority of that takes place inside the structure within appliance, conduit ect. If an arc has a low impedance path to the source, I cant see voltage swells taking place. Also, how would soil limit surges?
 

iwire

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You don't have to convince me, you have to convince the CMP.

I suspect you will have as much luck with that as me convincing my wife that family vacation should include stops at industrial factory tours. :D
 

mbrooke

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You don't have to convince me, you have to convince the CMP.

I suspect you will have as much luck with that as me convincing my wife that family vacation should include stops at industrial factory tours. :D


I know I will not convince the CMP, they are bound to certain strings Id rather to mention. But my point is from the laws of physics perspective, what do they really accomplish and when do they do it and to what degree?
 
True, but how much do they really help with that, especially when most ground rods are over 25 ohms?



1. Lightening


If a home is struck by lighting, I don't see ground rods mitigating the energy. Damage will still occur. In fact lighting is more likely to find another path to ground as it is a high frequency pulse of energy. Lighting is less likely to travel to a well casing further away then a high resistance ground rod closer by.

2. Line surges

These are caused by many things, but they are always phase to phase or phase to neutral, most of them caused by elevated current spikes on the primary of the transformer. Other than perhaps lighting, I cant think of any surge just going to ground.

3. Incidental contact with higher voltages.

This may have some merit in one cases*. But other than that if the neutral became energized the equal potential system in the home will keep everything at similar potentials. Everything else will be energized relative to earth soil unless you are physically standing on the ground rod. If the hots had an over voltage nothing would change, equipment will still be damaged as current will still go out through the neutral, and even then the ground rod.

*Now, I could see a case where a primary fall on a broken MGN. Assuming a 25 ohm ground rod at 7,200 ohms this would draw about 280 amps, so if the feeder is protected with a fuse under 100amps like a 65K link the hazard will be removed a lot faster, but that assumes the ground rod is the only source back to the substation.


4. Stabilize the voltage to earth.

This I don't buy. Yes the system is loosely coupled via capacitance to earth, but the majority of that takes place inside the structure within appliance, conduit ect. If an arc has a low impedance path to the source, I cant see voltage swells taking place. Also, how would soil limit surges?

I dont think the resistance of an electrode or electrode system matters much. I would like to see some studies and/or a specific situation described with physics and electrical theory that says otherwise.

Lightning: I dont see that system grounding does anything for this in fact it seems that an ungrounded system would be safer during a ground potential rise event by a nearby lighting strike. Equipment earthing - perhaps but I dont really see that either. My understanding is that lightning doesnt "like" to travel very far on a single conductor.

Line surges: I dont buy this at all.

Contact with higher voltage lines: I think this is valid.

Stabilize voltage to earth: I think this is valid but I hate the wording and think many people get the wrong idea about what they are saying here and imagine the earth absorbing and clamping surges and regulating voltage. What they mean is just that it makes a reliable uniform reference between conductors of the system and non current carrying metal parts. Take an ungrounded system and measure the voltage with a high impedance meter and as you know you will get anything and it can vary over time. So who cares? Well that is one argument. I think it could make the system safer to work on since you always know what you have and to what. But then of course you open yourself up to the possibility of line to ground shock and arc flash/blast so
i dont know which is better.....
 

mbrooke

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I dont think the resistance of an electrode or electrode system matters much. I would like to see some studies and/or a specific situation described with physics and electrical theory that says otherwise.

Lightning: I dont see that system grounding does anything for this in fact it seems that an ungrounded system would be safer during a ground potential rise event by a nearby lighting strike. Equipment earthing - perhaps but I dont really see that either. My understanding is that lightning doesnt "like" to travel very far on a single conductor.

You are correct IMO, and with that said anything more than single point grounding to earth is counter productive. Picture a downed wire. It will create a voltage gradient across the earth. Multi point grounding will in fact allow the voltage potential to seek another path; that being everything in between those 2 earthed points. Mike Holt has even brought up studies where ground rods at CNC machine will cause damage rather than protecting the machine due to that fact.

A direct lightning hit is out of the question no matter what.


Line surges: I dont buy this at all.

I don't either. Transients seek the source.



Contact with higher voltage lines: I think this is valid.

Only under certain scenarios IMO. I will have to think this over more.




Stabilize voltage to earth: I think this is valid but I hate the wording and think many people get the wrong idea about what they are saying here and imagine the earth absorbing and clamping surges and regulating voltage.

I agree, people are lead to believe that the earth itself is bleeding off or absorbing extra energy, which is not the case.



What they mean is just that it makes a reliable uniform reference between conductors of the system and non current carrying metal parts. Take an ungrounded system and measure the voltage with a high impedance meter and as you know you will get anything and it can vary over time. So who cares? Well that is one argument. I think it could make the system safer to work on since you always know what you have and to what. But then of course you open yourself up to the possibility of line to ground shock and arc flash/blast so
i dont know which is better.....

I agree and disagree, though the theory behind it is sound. This would hold merit perhaps for a transmission line where the wires are hovering above earth its entire length (which in theory if all wires are equal distance from earth the unbalanced current/neutral point shift would be negligible), but in building wiring 99% of the capacitive coupling is between bonded metal rather than soil. So the reference is on the entire bonding system rather than earth.


An ungrounded system is the best example. It will work just like a grounded system without a fault. Voltage between P and EGC will vary depending on the symmetry of the capacitance/inductance between each phase and the bonding/earth/ grounding or what every you want to call it system. Surges only take place when a phase begins arcing to something bonded. The arcing causes oscillation with the capacitance and produces over voltages. Simply adding a sufficiently sized resistor to the star point and an arc will not cause over voltages. In the end, the soil has absolutely nothing to do with any of this.


................................................................


I just want to add a scenario where bonding to soil could be called stabilization of voltage. Picture an long ungrounded 3 phase 3 wire transmission line as was come in the early days of commercial electrification. The voltage stress was high on insulators when switching these lines because no switch is perfect with no phase precisely closing at the same time. The first phase coming on line and the second would "shift" the neutral vector that forms from phases being capacitive coupled to earth. The 3rd phasing coming on line would "elevate" the vector producing voltage stress. An arc fault would also cause extreme voltage stress on insulators as described above. Both these scenarios lead to connecting the XO to soil, which created a path back to the source neutral from the phases coupled to earth. In this case grounding is stabilizing, but only because the soil is a conductor back to the source rather than a wick for excessive electrons.
 
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Smart $

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I'm hearing a lot of supposition here... but rather than debating that, I'd like to point out a lot of what I'm hearing is based on the system actually being "earthed". While there is little reduced risk to a system that is not "earthed", risk changes with respect to personnel safety, life, and property.

Until you evaluate "earthed" versus not "earthed", you are not making an adequate assessment. And in that assessment, don't forget, first fault on an ungrounded system doesn't trip a breaker or blow a fuse. Then when you have this "not earthed" system what are the hazards during of a line to earth fault (say from a direct buried cable) and a separate line to "chassis" fault in the vicinity where you are standing (and of course, assume the faults are with two different lines of the same solidly connected system)... ;)
 

mbrooke

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I'm hearing a lot of supposition here... but rather than debating that, I'd like to point out a lot of what I'm hearing is based on the system actually being "earthed". While there is little reduced risk to a system that is not "earthed", risk changes with respect to personnel safety, life, and property.

Until you evaluate "earthed" versus not "earthed", you are not making an adequate assessment. And in that assessment, don't forget, first fault on an ungrounded system doesn't trip a breaker or blow a fuse. Then when you have this "not earthed" system what are the hazards during of a line to earth fault (say from a direct buried cable) and a separate line to "chassis" fault in the vicinity where you are standing (and of course, assume the faults are with two different lines of the same solidly connected system)... ;)


My point is do we need grounding electrodes at a structure once the transformer is already earthed?
 

Dennis Alwon

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My point is do we need grounding electrodes at a structure once the transformer is already earthed?

Every pole with a transformer is earthed and the more connections to earth that we have the better reference to 0 volts we have. Suppose that transformer was 800 feet away. Not a great reference point to disperse surges, is it.
 

mbrooke

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Every pole with a transformer is earthed and the more connections to earth that we have the better reference to 0 volts we have. Suppose that transformer was 800 feet away. Not a great reference point to disperse surges, is it.

Certainly not a good reference point, but what surges are we talking about? Unless lightning, surges aren't looking for ground.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
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The service that is 800 feet from the transformer will have a difference in potential between the earth at the service location and the grounded conductor - unless there is no load on the grounded conductor. (it may still have voltage coming from the primary MGN though because of voltage drop on the MGN) Adding an electrode at/near this service will equalize that potential - to what degree really does depend on the resistance of the electrode and soil conditions. That doesn't mean you cannot exceed NEC minimum requirements and install a complex grounding electrode system, or in instances like we have with art 547 or 680 maybe even are required to install equipotential bonding grids or bond to additional items not required in general to ensure there are no voltage gradients in a specific area.

Intentional grounding creates a known reference point throughout the entire grid, the more intentional grounded points there are the more reliable that reference point becomes. Earth is a solid reference - but connecting to it with low resistance is not easy to do with what is really a small electrode surface area in general - that is part of why you have electrodes of some sort at nearly every structure connected to the power grid, including the service ends at each user.

I do agree that having an electrode present at all times or at all costs is not as critical as some maybe like to make it seem.

I had an inspector once just about come unglued on a project that was not yet finished where I had not yet completed connection of the grounding electrode. He seemed to think that was very important or someone would be seriously be injured or killed, when my thoughts were that the POCO had an electrode at their transformer pole only 30 feet or so away, this was a non public building, and all concrete - so it was well earthed anyway, and I would have felt much more safe standing in that building during a lightning storm then outdoors with or without a GES, so yes I will install proper electrode when it is convenient for me and before calling my work completed, but was certainly not worried about not having this electrode the least bit in the meantime.

How about one time recently when a local POCO was making a repair to an underground 34.5 KVA line. I don't know a lot about specific items or practices with this high of voltage, but electrical theory is still electrical theory. First thing is this was an old line that since has been replaced, but it did have a failure just a couple years ago and they needed to repair it and get it back on line. It ran adjacent to a barbed wire fence - like many lines in this rural area do. They had made their repair and still had the hole open when they energized the line. Apparently there was insulation breakdown somewhere in their splice - whether it was defective components or improper installation IDK, but they had an arc to that fence, and small grass fires here and there along that fence and arcing over to telephone pedestals near the fence for a few miles in any direction from the repair site, and telephone equipment damages in many customer locations in a few mile area vicinity of the repair site. At least they were smart enough to get everyone out and away from the hole before energizing the line. This is a good example IMO of how grounding helps protect from contact with higher voltage lines, had that arced to a well grounded distribution line or secondary line instead of the not so well grounded barbed wire fence - it may not have been as big of an incident damage wise as it would have cleared fault protection devices quicker then it did, and this location was within only a mile of the substation that supplied the line as well. Once it got much further then that distance away it became an overhead line.
 

Dennis Alwon

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I agree kwired the grounding electrode conductor especially to a rod is not very necessary, however there are many things in the nec that are not dangerous or urgent if left undone. If I have a strap or staple 2 inches beyond the nec requirementm no one is going to loose sleep over it but the code needs to have guidelines. To eliminate the grounding electrode conductor IMO, may not be the worst thing in the world but it does have some purpose and can help to some degree. Why would we eliminate it?
 

petersonra

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I agree that the added level of safety, if any, is very limited, but I also think we have way too many grounding electrodes to go back and redo all of your electrical systems to come up with something better.

There have been some incremental improvements such as requiring 4 wires to go to outlying structures.

For those that think that an 800 foot service run creates some kind of issue, how is that any different than running a feeder underground from the main panel board for 800 feet to another structure. Don't you have the same potential voltage difference there between the two earth points?

And what about delta systems that have no earth reference at all? Are they somehow inherently unsafe now?
 

mbrooke

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The service that is 800 feet from the transformer will have a difference in potential between the earth at the service location and the grounded conductor - unless there is no load on the grounded conductor. (it may still have voltage coming from the primary MGN though because of voltage drop on the MGN) Adding an electrode at/near this service will equalize that potential - to what degree really does depend on the resistance of the electrode and soil conditions. That doesn't mean you cannot exceed NEC minimum requirements and install a complex grounding electrode system, or in instances like we have with art 547 or 680 maybe even are required to install equipotential bonding grids or bond to additional items not required in general to ensure there are no voltage gradients in a specific area.

But this begs the question, should electricians pay so the POCO can save money?

What will keep the neutral at a light socket near the same potential as the plumbing or concrete slab is bonding within the structure. Granted a ground rod is another path back to the source lowering the impedance of the neutral circuit as whole so voltage drop is alleviated a bit, but in theory at the other end of the house if I took a volt meter to a spigot with the other lead in the dirt I would still measure voltage, voltage that would be much higher than bonded points within the structure.


In theory, if the earth was a copper ball soil would provide profound equal potential for miles around a single ground rod, but because soil is unreliable equal potential only exists directly around the ground rod if not right on it.


Intentional grounding creates a known reference point throughout the entire grid, the more intentional grounded points there are the more reliable that reference point becomes. Earth is a solid reference - but connecting to it with low resistance is not easy to do with what is really a small electrode surface area in general - that is part of why you have electrodes of some sort at nearly every structure connected to the power grid, including the service ends at each user.


But in theory, this is a waste of money. Would it not be more economical to just upsize or insulate the neutral than keep finding ways to turn the earth into a conductor? FWIW, Keep in mind that per NESC the neutral is only required to be earthed 4 times a mile.



I do agree that having an electrode present at all times or at all costs is not as critical as some maybe like to make it seem.

IMO, outside of a lightning strike near by I do not believe an earth rod does much.


I had an inspector once just about come unglued on a project that was not yet finished where I had not yet completed connection of the grounding electrode. He seemed to think that was very important or someone would be seriously be injured or killed, when my thoughts were that the POCO had an electrode at their transformer pole only 30 feet or so away, this was a non public building, and all concrete - so it was well earthed anyway, and I would have felt much more safe standing in that building during a lightning storm then outdoors with or without a GES, so yes I will install proper electrode when it is convenient for me and before calling my work completed, but was certainly not worried about not having this electrode the least bit in the meantime.


If you have a UFER the ground rods can be ditched. Id say the inspector is locked in the old school way of thinking that grounding is everything. Up until 30 years ago most books would actually depict ground rods clearing a fault, so the myth ingrained itself deeply.


How about one time recently when a local POCO was making a repair to an underground 34.5 KVA line. I don't know a lot about specific items or practices with this high of voltage, but electrical theory is still electrical theory. First thing is this was an old line that since has been replaced, but it did have a failure just a couple years ago and they needed to repair it and get it back on line. It ran adjacent to a barbed wire fence - like many lines in this rural area do. They had made their repair and still had the hole open when they energized the line. Apparently there was insulation breakdown somewhere in their splice - whether it was defective components or improper installation IDK, but they had an arc to that fence, and small grass fires here and there along that fence and arcing over to telephone pedestals near the fence for a few miles in any direction from the repair site, and telephone equipment damages in many customer locations in a few mile area vicinity of the repair site. At least they were smart enough to get everyone out and away from the hole before energizing the line. This is a good example IMO of how grounding helps protect from contact with higher voltage lines, had that arced to a well grounded distribution line or secondary line instead of the not so well grounded barbed wire fence - it may not have been as big of an incident damage wise as it would have cleared fault protection devices quicker then it did, and this location was within only a mile of the substation that supplied the line as well. Once it got much further then that distance away it became an overhead line.

If the line had all loads connected in delta (I assume it did not as is typical for North American) the fence would have cleared the fault immediately. Which brings up another situation, typical practices force high zero sequence pick up values. In order to trip high Z0 relaying a low impedance path must be developed. This in itself adds cost, complexity, and drastically increases the incident energy of a fault which also increase the duration to which voltage drop will occur across the grounding system ironically forcing greater equal potential boning and grounding.


I have seen a phase fall across an MGN some distance from the substation. The fault took a few seconds to clear the recloser, but pole pigs around the fault connected to the healthy phases experienced a significant voltage rise due to neutral shift in the MGN. In a case like this any other path back to the substation will reduce the shift mitigating the risk of customer damage due to over voltage. From this stand point extra ground rods do help, but mask what is IMO flawed engineering to start with.


However, I do agree with you in one case, if a phase fell onto a broken service drop having the ground rod might clear a protective device faster.
 
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