PV software

Eros · Jun 30, 2015

I am looking for some design and estimating PV software that can be used with iPhones and iPads - any suggestions. Thx

jtopham26 · Jun 30, 2015

helioscope

PVfarmer · Jul 1, 2015

yes!

yes!

jtopham26 said:
helioscope

Helioscope is VERY handy.

i'd personally never use a phone, too dang small for me, but Helio is all online so no memory troubles there.

NREL/SAM is also very good (not online), it does the $$ and usage also (Helioscope doesn't do those)

And Sunny Design Web is also good (on or offline, does $$ and usage), but the first two are easier to "figure out" right off the bat.

https://sam.nrel.gov/

P.S. Helio is free for a month, then costs $$, and the other two are zero $$.

ggunn · Jul 1, 2015

Eros said:
I am looking for some design and estimating PV software that can be used with iPhones and iPads - any suggestions. Thx

I apologize for the diversion, but you touched a hot button of mine. After not using it for more than a year, I subscribed (you cannot buy it any more) to Adobe Acrobat Pro, now called Acrobat DC. During my hiatus from the software, Adobe made major "improvements" to the program so that it will run on mobile devices, and in the process made it so difficult to use on a desktop system that I am this close <holding up thumb and index finger about 1/4 inch apart> to abandoning my one year prepaid investment in the program and switching to Bluebeam.

For one, the tools icons are so huge on a desktop monitor that instead of compact detailed toolbars where I could have everything I needed at my fingertips, the tools button takes my document off the screen and replaces it with a full page of giant icons. Also, some functions that I use all the time are now buried three or four deep in nested menus instead of being a tool button out where I can see them. Now I have to remember down which rabbit hole they stuck them and what they are called now.

They took a logically laid out program that was intuitively simple to use and tried to make it all things to all people, and in the process made it so that it doesn't work well for anybody.

end rant

ron · Jul 1, 2015

PVfarmer said:
NREL/SAM is also very good (not online), it does the $$ and usage also (Helioscope doesn't do those)

https://sam.nrel.gov/

How does SAM compare with http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/ ?

PVfarmer · Jul 1, 2015

ron said:
How does SAM compare with http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/ ?

It's much more detailed.
I'm doing a PV Watts one right now to compare-
1. You can upload your own/closer to actual location weather file into SAM, PVW seems to just give the nearest city.
2. PVWatts does let you choose 1 or 2 axis tracking, not sure if SAM has that or not.
3. There are only 2 pages of inputs for PVWatts, and you kinda need the info you get from Helioscope or SAM to fill out the losses correctly.
4. SAM is really like 10x as detailed- there's "detailed" and "basic" options on SAM, even the basic one is way more detailed.
You can also upload a "load profile" into SAM, which is this 8760 line text file thing- I made a spreadsheet that lets you take any electric bill's 12 kWh/month numbers and plug them in, and makes the 8760 row column for ya!

Yes, I'm a nerd. Let me know if you want to try it - just a .xls file that you fill in the 12 lines each of kWh and days per month.
Plus, you can pick all the specific panels/inverters/strings sizes with SAM, and detailed costs.

It might take 5 or 10 minutes to do an "estimate" with PVW, but it only takes 15-20 minutes with SAM when you get the hang of it, but then with SAM you have literally thousands of charts and graphs to confuse yourself with, financial and PV-output related.

jtopham26 · Jul 1, 2015

ggunn said:
I apologize for the diversion, but you touched a hot button of mine. After not using it for more than a year, I subscribed (you cannot buy it any more) to Adobe Acrobat Pro, now called Acrobat DC. During my hiatus from the software, Adobe made major "improvements" to the program so that it will run on mobile devices, and in the process made it so difficult to use on a desktop system that I am this close <holding up thumb and index finger about 1/4 inch apart> to abandoning my one year prepaid investment in the program and switching to Bluebeam.

For one, the tools icons are so huge on a desktop monitor that instead of compact detailed toolbars where I could have everything I needed at my fingertips, the tools button takes my document off the screen and replaces it with a full page of giant icons. Also, some functions that I use all the time are now buried three or four deep in nested menus instead of being a tool button out where I can see them. Now I have to remember down which rabbit hole they stuck them and what they are called now.

They took a logically laid out program that was intuitively simple to use and tried to make it all things to all people, and in the process made it so that it doesn't work well for anybody.

end rant

dude... BLUEBEAM is the best program I've ever used I would like to quit using cad and do all my designs in bluebeam

jtopham26 · Jul 1, 2015

I've written my own software using Sam SDK in MATLAB... it was pretty comprehensive and did a very detailed analysis of the costs and losses of conductors, more than any current program out there

ron · Jul 1, 2015

PVfarmer said:
It's much more detailed.
I'm doing a PV Watts one right now to compare-
1. You can upload your own/closer to actual location weather file into SAM, PVW seems to just give the nearest city.
2. PVWatts does let you choose 1 or 2 axis tracking, not sure if SAM has that or not.
3. There are only 2 pages of inputs for PVWatts, and you kinda need the info you get from Helioscope or SAM to fill out the losses correctly.
4. SAM is really like 10x as detailed- there's "detailed" and "basic" options on SAM, even the basic one is way more detailed.
You can also upload a "load profile" into SAM, which is this 8760 line text file thing- I made a spreadsheet that lets you take any electric bill's 12 kWh/month numbers and plug them in, and makes the 8760 row column for ya! Yes, I'm a nerd. Let me know if you want to try it - just a .xls file that you fill in the 12 lines each of kWh and days per month.
Plus, you can pick all the specific panels/inverters/strings sizes with SAM, and detailed costs.

It might take 5 or 10 minutes to do an "estimate" with PVW, but it only takes 15-20 minutes with SAM when you get the hang of it, but then with SAM you have literally thousands of charts and graphs to confuse yourself with, financial and PV-output related.

Thanks, I'll try it sometime

PVfarmer · Jul 2, 2015

This is a good write-up.

http://www.civicsolar.com/resource/pv-design-software

PVfarmer · Jul 2, 2015

jtopham26 said:
I've written my own software using Sam SDK in MATLAB... it was pretty comprehensive and did a very detailed analysis of the costs and losses of conductors, more than any current program out there

That's interesting, Helioscope does losses pretty well but not cost.
Is that software...available anywhere?

ggunn · Jul 2, 2015

PVfarmer said:
That's interesting, Helioscope does losses pretty well but not cost.
Is that software...available anywhere?

It does a BOM, does it not?

jtopham26 · Jul 2, 2015

PVfarmer said:
That's interesting, Helioscope does losses pretty well but not cost.
Is that software...available anywhere?

nope I wrote it and published a paper using it. only I have a copy and sadly I don't really use it because I don't have a licence for the software I made it in, matlab

PVfarmer · Jul 2, 2015

ggunn said:
It does a BOM, does it not?

Materials, yes, but nothing about $$ for them.
You could copy/paste them into a spreadsheet and export a pdf from there.

It tells you the exact amount of wire (to a point, the wires only go left/right and up/down, you can only move the panels and combiners, not the wires, so they end up going straight over the house sometimes, depending on layout. But you can leave the wiring out of the pdf/pic it produces and then put it in where you want, with Paint or whatever)

So you get the equipment and links to the specs, but nothing anywhere about the cost of the equip.
I think you have to have at least a free account for these links to work. I'll find an example pdf an upload it.

edit: this 1st "AC Home Run" is really the "PCC Home Run"
There are a few little glitches, but I emailed the guy who wrote it and they're fixing them.
I'd recommend the free webinar they do- it's one hour and pretty helpful.

Components

Component	Name	Count
Inverter	Sunny Tripower 20000TL-US (SMA)	3 (60.0 kW)
Transformer	Primary Side: 240V 1-Phase, Secondary: 480Y/277V	1
AC Panel	3 input Panel	1
Combiner	2 pole Combiner	3
Combiner	3 pole Combiner	6
AC Home Run	500 MCM (Copper)	1 (36.7 ft)
AC Home Run	3/0 AWG (Copper)	3 (985.3 ft)
Home Runs	1/0 AWG (Copper)	9 (4,200.6 ft)
Strings	6 AWG (Copper)	18 (1,677.5 ft)
Module	AXIblackpremium AC-250M/156-60S (Axitec)	306

ggunn · Jul 2, 2015

PVfarmer said:
Materials, yes, but nothing about $$ for them.

That's understandable. Depending on the size of the company, its affiliation with a "mother ship" integrator, and a bazillion other factors, everyone's cost of materials is different. Plus, prices are changing constantly. A BOM should be enough.

PVfarmer · Jul 3, 2015

ggunn said:
That's understandable. Depending on the size of the company, its affiliation with a "mother ship" integrator, and a bazillion other factors, everyone's cost of materials is different. Plus, prices are changing constantly. A BOM should be enough.

I hear ya, it would just be nice if there was a way to print/save a file that you could fill in with prices. Copy/paste is easy enough.
The ideal thing (for me) is to do the system in HelioS first, so you get the visual and components, and use that info to fill out SAM, which'll do the detailed financial stuff.
SAM doesn't do all the combiner boxes/wire sizes and details like that, but you can use the same TMY3 weather file for both...then the two "simulations" together are pretty much all you need.
The Sunny Web Design is pretty handy also, does wiring and financials, but again ot as "visual".

And, is it just me, or does that "affiliation with a mother ship" thing sometimes...make the prices go UP?
Not gonna name names, but...whew.

ggunn · Jul 3, 2015

PVfarmer said:
And, is it just me, or does that "affiliation with a mother ship" thing sometimes...make the prices go UP?
Not gonna name names, but...whew.

I have some friends who have a small solar operation which is a franchise of a much larger operation. They buy some of their materials through the larger op and get price breaks because of the buying volume of the larger op. That's what I meant.

BillK-AZ · Jul 5, 2015

PVfarmer said:
Materials, yes, but nothing about $$ for them.
You could copy/paste them into a spreadsheet and export a pdf from there.

It tells you the exact amount of wire (to a point, the wires only go left/right and up/down, you can only move the panels and combiners, not the wires, so they end up going straight over the house sometimes, depending on layout. But you can leave the wiring out of the pdf/pic it produces and then put it in where you want, with Paint or whatever)

So you get the equipment and links to the specs, but nothing anywhere about the cost of the equip.
I think you have to have at least a free account for these links to work. I'll find an example pdf an upload it.

edit: this 1st "AC Home Run" is really the "PCC Home Run"
There are a few little glitches, but I emailed the guy who wrote it and they're fixing them.
I'd recommend the free webinar they do- it's one hour and pretty helpful.

Components

Component Name Count
Inverter Sunny Tripower 20000TL-US (SMA) 3 (60.0 kW)
Transformer Primary Side: 240V 1-Phase, Secondary: 480Y/277V 1
AC Panel 3 input Panel 1
Combiner 2 pole Combiner 3
Combiner 3 pole Combiner 6
AC Home Run 500 MCM (Copper) 1 (36.7 ft)
AC Home Run 3/0 AWG (Copper) 3 (985.3 ft)
Home Runs 1/0 AWG (Copper) 9 (4,200.6 ft)
Strings 6 AWG (Copper) 18 (1,677.5 ft)
Module AXIblackpremium AC-250M/156-60S (Axitec) 306

How does one use a "Transformer- Primary Side: 240V 1-Phase, Secondary: 480Y/277V" with the Sunny Tripower 20000TL-US that are 3-phase 480/277V?

ggunn · Jul 5, 2015

BillK-AZ said:
How does one use a "Transformer- Primary Side: 240V 1-Phase, Secondary: 480Y/277V" with the Sunny Tripower 20000TL-US that are 3-phase 480/277V?

One doesn't, but I think he sees it now. http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=170392

PVfarmer · Jul 5, 2015

BillK-AZ said:
How does one use a "Transformer- Primary Side: 240V 1-Phase, Secondary: 480Y/277V" with the Sunny Tripower 20000TL-US that are 3-phase 480/277V?

One wouldn't normally. But I haven't given up 100% yet. And that was originally no xfmr, Tripowers straight to 480/277 grid, but I happened to paste it here after I'd changed it to see what the result was re: output when stepped down to 240. (Not really too much- not as much reduction as it seems using 240V AC SMAs instead of Tripowers)

When the wiring system in place before the PV install is 120/240, so upgrading is expensive, and the Tripowers perform better than the SMA 240V models, one has to wonder.

That which you quoted means something along one of these lines. Hypothectically of course. The Tripower is on the secondary side and the grid service is 240 1ph (actually 120/240 split but there's no option to select that.):
http://www.temcoindustrialpower.com/products/Transformers_-_General/HT0193.html

http://www.temcoindustrialpower.com/products/Transformers_-_General/HT4091.html

http://www.temcoindustrialpower.com/products/Transformers_-_General/HT0025.html

The first one might work in with these somehow. Page 17 and on.

The Sunny Island can be integrated into different system constellations. The following graphics show
the devices of a Sunny Island system and the different wiring options (single-phase / single-phase
parallel, split-phase, double-split-phase and three-phase).
http://files.sma.de/dl/15216/SI4548-6048-US-BE-en-20.pdf

Which is from the manual for these:
http://www.sma-america.com/products...y-island-4548-us-6048-us.html#Overview-137003

It would be a let down to not have any power when the grid goes down.

But...it's looking like we'll shell out the extra $$ and get 3 phase service, then use either the first of those three above or maybe this one for the load:
http://www.temcoindustrialpower.com/products/Transformers_-_General/HT4436.html

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