E-Stop Required for Motor

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Davebones

Senior Member
We have a 25 hp motor pump setup that is being used for a temporary test set-up . We have a 480V fusible disconnect on the wall that feeds a VFD just below it . They start / stop the motor using the run/stop button on the drive . The safety department is requesting that a e-stop be added . If we added a E-stop it would just be next to the VFD . Does OHSA require a E-Stop in this situation ?
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
We have a 25 hp motor pump setup that is being used for a temporary test set-up . We have a 480V fusible disconnect on the wall that feeds a VFD just below it . They start / stop the motor using the run/stop button on the drive . The safety department is requesting that a e-stop be added . If we added a E-stop it would just be next to the VFD . Does OHSA require a E-Stop in this situation ?

I don't know the answer if an E-Stop is regulatory - so I won't comment on that.

However, would an E-STOP label on the disconnect satisify the Safety Department. Generally speaking, anytime I have a Safety Dept telling me "........", reason and logic no longer apply.

ice
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I would not argue over such a small thing. Just do it, and document the cost.

You are talking about $50 worth of parts and maybe an hour of labor. It is not worth arguing with them over it. You probably spent more posting about it then it would have cost to just do it.

Whether it is necessary or even useful is another issue.

As for the idea of using the disconnect as the e-stop, that is a horrible idea. Disconnects are disconnects and are not intended to be opened under load, and do not have the natural ease of operation that a simple estop PB has. You are opening yourself up for serious litigation if you were to do this. Better to have no estop IMO than to claim the disconnect is an estop.
 

big john

Senior Member
Location
Portland, ME
You very likely need a category 0 emergency drop, which means that the VFD likely cannot perform this function because it isn't safety-rated.

Properly sized disconnect switches are rated to interrupt a running load safely and are completely acceptable as a category 0 emergency stop as long as they are clearly labeled.

Look at NFPA 79 for more guidance.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
You very likely need a category 0 emergency drop, which means that the VFD likely cannot perform this function because it isn't safety-rated.

Properly sized disconnect switches are rated to interrupt a running load safely and are completely acceptable as a category 0 emergency stop as long as they are clearly labeled.

Look at NFPA 79 for more guidance.

NFPA79 does indeed have some guidance, but it may not apply to a single pump motor as it might well not fit the definition of industrial machine that NFPA79 applies to.

You might also want to read carefully to discern the difference between a category 0 (1) (2) stop, and an emergency stop function. Note that the use of the term "category" (0,1, or 2) stop does not use the term "emergency". There are some provisions that might appear to allow you to use one to satisfy both functions, but in practice it might be tough to make that work, although possible. One problem is that emergency stop actuators are required to be color coded by NFPA79 in a certain way that disconnect switches are not always colored.
 

big john

Senior Member
Location
Portland, ME
NFPA79 does indeed have some guidance, but it may not apply to a single pump motor as it might well not fit the definition of industrial machine that NFPA79 applies to.

You might also want to read carefully to discern the difference between a category 0 (1) (2) stop, and an emergency stop function. Note that the use of the term "category" (0,1, or 2) stop does not use the term "emergency". There are some provisions that might appear to allow you to use one to satisfy both functions, but in practice it might be tough to make that work, although possible. One problem is that emergency stop actuators are required to be color coded by NFPA79 in a certain way that disconnect switches are not always colored.
Check out 9.2.5.4.1.3. All emergency stops must be category 0 or 1.

I agree this may not fall under the scope of 79 but it's still not good practice to rely on soft control logic for a life-safety shutdown. So barring a more relevant standard, 79 is good guidance.
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
We have a 25 hp motor pump setup that is being used for a temporary test set-up . We have a 480V fusible disconnect on the wall that feeds a VFD just below it . They start / stop the motor using the run/stop button on the drive . The safety department is requesting that a e-stop be added . If we added a E-stop it would just be next to the VFD . Does OHSA require a E-Stop in this situation ?

In this case, what is wrong with using the stop button on the drive? By your description, I'm not sure one is required here at all.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Check out 9.2.5.4.1.3. All emergency stops must be category 0 or 1.

I agree this may not fall under the scope of 79 but it's still not good practice to rely on soft control logic for a life-safety shutdown. So barring a more relevant standard, 79 is good guidance.

All emergency stops have to be category 0 or 1, but that does not mean all category 0 or 1 stops qualify as emergency stops.

All ducks are birds, but not all birds are ducks.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
We're specifically discussing emergency stops. Other stopping conditions are irrelevant to OPs situation.
I thought part of the issue here was determining if an emergency stop is necessary? OP did say safety department wanted one, but did not give any other information on what hazards are present.
 

Davebones

Senior Member
Just hydraulic fluid not any kind of fire hazard . Temporary Test stand set-up is basically on the floor taking up about a 8' x 8' area . I can just go ahead and add the e-stop as some suggest but did wonder if this would be a OHSA requirement . Test will probably run about a week off and on . Yes it is in a industrial type facility ...
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
We're specifically discussing emergency stops. Other stopping conditions are irrelevant to OPs situation.

No. We are discussing your assertion that the disconnecting means can be the emergency stop. It can be if it meets all of the requirements for emergency stops, but being a category 0 stop meets only one of the requirements for emergency stops.
 

big john

Senior Member
Location
Portland, ME
No. We are discussing your assertion that the disconnecting means can be the emergency stop. It can be if it meets all of the requirements for emergency stops, but being a category 0 stop meets only one of the requirements for emergency stops.
That's fine, but it has nothing to do with the other categories of stopping conditions that you've brought up several times.

The simple fact is that with a little colorful paint the existing disconnect could be a 100% compliant e-stop.
 
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paulengr

Senior Member
We have a 25 hp motor pump setup that is being used for a temporary test set-up . We have a 480V fusible disconnect on the wall that feeds a VFD just below it . They start / stop the motor using the run/stop button on the drive . The safety department is requesting that a e-stop be added . If we added a E-stop it would just be next to the VFD . Does OHSA require a E-Stop in this situation ?

1. OSHA does not REQUIRE an E-Stop in any regulation EXCEPT for presses.
2. BUT if you call it an E-Stop then there are certain requirements that apply, mostly laid out in NFPA 79.

One of the most important requirements, and this applies to safety in general, is that OSHA (among others) requires a risk assessment to be performed. This is where we get to the heart of the matter. First, you need to know what specific events (hazards) are being protected against, and what the reliability (likelihood of failure on demand) is going to be. This defines for any safety function the level of reliability and for higher level cases, the minimum level of redundancy that is required.

And ultimately, and here's the crux of the issue, humans are good for about 10% failure rates and this has been proven over and over again in countless studies, BUT it presumes that the human is in good health, focussed on the job, not overtired, not emotionally stressed, and most importantly, has plenty of time to evaluate the situation and make a calm, comfortable decision. In a typical "emergency" situation (buddy is being sucked into moving equipment and being mangled), the normal response is governed not by higher brain functions but a bunch of automatic functions at the lower brain stem tied to instincts. Typically this means you get a freeze or flight response, and just maybe if you're lucky, a rush to try to save their buddy without thought of what can be done in the current location. About the last thing you ever get is calmly reaching out to hit the E-Stop. So the failure rate for E-Stops is typically around 40% for the main sensor and processing mechanism, the person that has to hit the E-Stop. There is a ton of research on this subject (look for human reliability studies) with results that vary all over the map but consistently the trend is nowhere near reliable enough to actually use it.

So yes, you can install a "control reliable" E-Stop connected to a safe-stop drive that uses two fully redundant paths for both the input and the output functions and generally go crazy making the whole system SIL 2 (1% failure rate on demand) or even SIL 3 (0.1% failure rate) but it's silly and pointless because the human isn't that good.

And that's the important issue. If you do the risk assessment properly in the first place then all hazards or at least 90% of hazards (yep, the human's ability to find all the hazards is fallible as well) creeps in and you will quickly find that for any actual hazards for which an actual safety system is required, relying on humans screwing it up 10-40% of the time is simply unacceptable when it comes to a bonafide safety hazard. So the E-Stop has no place in safety systems in the first place as anything more than a feel-good.

Furthermore, and this is an even bigger issue with using the disconnect, the normal meaning of an E-Stop is that you have to stop as quickly as possible, even if you have to destroy equipment in the process of doing so. After all, it's an emergency. If the risk assessment is done then one of the things that comes out is a timing requirement...how fast does it need to stop. And guess what is almost never acceptable? Coast to stop, which is what you get when you just cut power. I've seem some very low friction systems literally take almost an hour to coast to a stop. So what you really need is a very fast stop and due to the fact that reliability becomes problematic when you try to do it under power (e.g. use the drive to execute a controlled deceleration) this means having a mechanical brake which is energized to release the brake. So now the motor is a brake motor and you've got a single phase system alongside the VFD to energize the brake coil to release the break, along with some coordination with the drive. Ideally the drive will even apply torque before releasing the break to do a torque check to find how much braking power you have, and then and only then release the brakes and start running once that check has been passed. Or this same level of work has to be done as a functional capacity test with some regularity to verify that the safety system which is almost never actually used will actually perform when required and hasn't failed via some kind of hidden failure over time such as if the brake shoes wore out.

Finally, consider this. You trigger all the Code and regulatory requirements by calling it an E-Stop. Nobody is requiring you to have one (again with the exception of presses) but as soon as you call it that, then the various requirements for an E-Stop apply. Nobody is holding you back though from having stop buttons and you can call it whatever you want. Process stop, equipment stop, or just stop. Just anything and everything except Emergency Stop.

So with all that being said, I don't even subscribe to the "just put one in" philosophy. It's on your head as the electrical representative to do an E-Stop system exactly according to Code. Since 99.99% of safety professionals have no idea what they are doing when they start throwing E-Stop requirements around or they typically knee-jerk it when questioned and basically "blow up" a project, calling them out on it is the best solution. The safety personnel have to be very specific when telling you exactly what to install and they must provide that level of detail. Otherwise, if you take the previous advice, just put in an E-Stop button as requested. Do not connect it electrically to anything. It's just a button, AS REQUESTED. Without a definition as to what it stops, how, with what level of reliability, under what Code (there are a bunch of competing safety Codes), it's a nonstarter.

By the way if you need to give SOMETHING, use the Robot Industries Association (RIA) Code for safety systems related to moving machinery. The reason is because it has definitions for everything including injuries, frequencies, what the electrical requirements are, and what is "safe enough". All of the other safety Codes out there are wishy-washy when it comes to this and provide no sort of guidance at all beyond a lot of hand waving and leave it up to safety departments to do stupid things. If it's more a process problem you can get something similar (although not as good) from the CCPS LOPA Handbook which is based on the same concepts as RIA but is more open ended because it deals with rare events and more generalized equipment, although the basic system is very much oriented towards pipes, pumps, and valves.

Some Codes that can be useful such as burner codes (NFPA 85, 86), or packaging equipment (PPI) standard are industry/equipment specific and prescriptive (do XXX) in nature, so there's no safety department feel good effort to do stupid things but it doesn't sound like this is your situation.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
"E-Stop" when applied to a VFD becomes fuzzy. You need to have them specifically DEFINE what they mean by E-Stop when there is a VFD involved. As was said, there is no OSHA requirement, but just relying on NFPA79, which may or may not apply, is still insufficient when a VFD is involved. What does "Emergency Stop" mean? The same as a Stop command? In a VFD, that might involve DECELERATION, which KEEPS energy on the motor as it is stopping, EXTENDING the stop time. Does it involve simply removing energy from the output of the drive? That might mean the motor will COAST to a stop, as opposed to BRAKING to a stop, which might have been faster than coasting. Most VFDs have different programming options available to address these 3 different "emergency" stop modes, you will need someone to decide what that will mean.
 

Johnnybob

Senior Member
Location
Colville, WA
IMHO, an E-stop on a VFD should break the "ENABLE" circuit, rendering the VFD inoperable until the "ENABLE" circuit is restored. As Jraef stated, there are programming parameters that can be set to determine how, exactly, the VFD shuts down upon loss of the "ENABLE" terminal.
 
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