Combining UPS and Emergency generator for emergency light fixtures.

[dannyrzk]

let see if I can explain this, and I know I have to talk to the local AHJ,but would like to know you all opinion first:

We are designing a health facility, which will included and standby emergency generator, and as you know there is 10 second waiting period (most of the time less than 10 sec) for the generator to kick and take over. Because of that lapse in time, the electrical inspector required that emergency light fixtures has their own battery pack to ensure a continuous path of egress at all time (which means no 10 sec or less is accepted).
here is my questions we are proposing a central UPS, for the computers system, but such UPS does not satisfy NEC 700.12 requirements of 1.5 hours, it does provided instantaneous power for a limited 12-15 min, way under the required 1.5 hr.

can the combination of the instantaneous UPS and the Standby generator satisfy the NEC requirements?

the intention is to save the client the expensive battery pack for LED fixtures, is five flour building, and the cost can add up quickly.

Thanks

 

[iwire]

For the most part you can only supply required egress lighting with equipment listed for emergency use.

A standby generator and a UPS, unless designed for it are not emergency supplies.

 

[JFletcher]

Dedicated e-lights would be cheaper, tho the associated extra wiring/labor would probably make them much more expensive than a battery pack or 40. Combo lights/exit signs would reduce the number of troffers needed to have battery backup.

 

[dannyrzk]

For the most part you can only supply required egress lighting with equipment listed for emergency use.

A standby generator and a UPS, unless designed for it are not emergency supplies.

thank you, for the quick response. the more I go over this, I see there is no other route, but to add emergency battery packs apart from the UPS.

appreciate it

 

[hornetd]

thank you, for the quick response. the more I go over this, I see there is no other route, but to add emergency battery packs apart from the UPS.

appreciate it

I think that your Inspector is "Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs?" and very much needs to be appealed to a standstill. If you are still in the design phase spend the clients money on the legal beagle's letter that requires him to quote chapter and verse. Have the attorney include language that implies that any retaliation during inspections will be treated as attempted extortion under color of authority. Were do they get these incompetent bosos and why do the turn them loose on the public. Everyone who uses that building or anything done in it is going to pay for this persons incompetence.

The entire building inspection service in the United States is in need of an overhaul. The feature that is the most lacking is any way to hold inspectors accountable for their bad decisions. What is needed is a no fault appeals process that is accessible to even the self employed sole proprietor electrician. If the Inspector is overturned three times it should be back to school. If they are overturned six times it should lead to suspension. Nine and they should be decertified and find other employment. The only ones that would ever accumulate nine successful appeals are the ones like this one who are making the rules up as the go along. There is a crying need for certification and continuing education requirements for inspectors. With comprehensive certification exams every three years just like most doctors. The money these cowboys are wasting is a tremendous drain on the entire economy.

 

[JFletcher]

Most inspectors I've seen are knowledgeable and not pulling rules out of their backsides. Then there are some who are... not very good. Ran into one of the latter five years ago; local fire marshal was AHJ, couldnt have cared if the building (wood framed) blew down in a light wind (serious framing issues everywhere, even obvious to someone who isnt a framer) but I swear he wanted that building to withstand a 6 hour fire (try finding firestop rated for that haha). My sheet from 3M showing the exact installation I did was no good to him. I joked that the only thing left of that building in such a fire would be my steel 4 squares, mudrings, and the charred putty pads they were wrapped in.

In this case tho egress emergency lighting is a pretty serious life and safety issue, and unless you can prove him wrong by code(s), you dont really have an argument. Especially in a health care facility.

 

[dannyrzk]

I think that your Inspector is "Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs?" and very much needs to be appealed to a standstill. If you are still in the design phase spend the clients money on the legal beagle's letter that requires him to quote chapter and verse. Have the attorney include language that implies that any retaliation during inspections will be treated as attempted extortion under color of authority. Were do they get these incompetent bosos and why do the turn them loose on the public. Everyone who uses that building or anything done in it is going to pay for this persons incompetence.

The entire building inspection service in the United States is in need of an overhaul. The feature that is the most lacking is any way to hold inspectors accountable for their bad decisions. What is needed is a no fault appeals process that is accessible to even the self employed sole proprietor electrician. If the Inspector is overturned three times it should be back to school. If they are overturned six times it should lead to suspension. Nine and they should be decertified and find other employment. The only ones that would ever accumulate nine successful appeals are the ones like this one who are making the rules up as the go along. There is a crying need for certification and continuing education requirements for inspectors. With comprehensive certification exams every three years just like most doctors. The money these cowboys are wasting is a tremendous drain on the entire economy.

let me see if I'm clear, because I really would like to know if it is possible to avoid using battery pack or spent any extra money I don't have to.
if I don't need to.

you think I an provide my emergency path by means of providing emergency back up from the UPS to those light fixture, of until the generator finally kick in. Even thought the UPS is not rated for the minimum required by NEC? I just want to clear.

thank you

 

[iwire]

let me see if I'm clear, because I really would like to know if it is possible to avoid using battery pack or spent any extra money I don't have to.
if I don't need to.

you think I an provide my emergency path by means of providing emergency back up from the UPS to those light fixture, of until the generator finally kick in. Even thought the UPS is not rated for the minimum required by NEC? I just want to clear.

thank you

I do not have a clue what Tom was going on about but here is a current code section to consider.

700.5 Transfer Equipment.
(A) General. Transfer equipment, including automatic transfer
switches, shall be automatic, identified for emergency use,
and approved by the authority having jurisdiction. Transfer
equipment shall be designed and installed to prevent the inadvertent
interconnection of normal and emergency sources of
supply in any operation of the transfer equipment. Transfer
equipment and electric power production systems installed to
permit operation in parallel with the normal source shall meet
the requirements of Article 705.

(B) Bypass Isolation Switches. Means shall be permitted
to bypass and isolate the transfer equipment. Where bypass
isolation switches are used, inadvertent parallel operation
shall be avoided.

(C) Automatic Transfer Switches. Automatic transfer
switches shall be electrically operated and mechanically
held. Automatic transfer switches, rated 600 VAC and
below, shall be listed for emergency system use.

(D) Use. Transfer equipment shall supply only emergency
loads.

The UPS you are talking about would be the transfer equipment and it is not listed for emergency system use.

Also that UPS/Transfer equipment is supplying loads other than emergency loads.


I can tell you with no doubt using a standby UPS and standby generator to supply emergency egress lighting would never pass inspection in my area.

 

[steve66]

Do you have a standby generator, or a true emergency system generator?

If its a standby generator, you need the battery packs, or some other source that is listed for use with emergency lighting.

If its a true emergency system, then its all that is required to power the emergency lights. (Unless you are talking about a surgery room or operating room). If this is the case, the generator must start and pick up the load within 10 seconds. And the inspector can't complain about the 10 sec. of darkness unless they have a local amendment.

Either way, forget about using a UPS that isn't listed for emergency lighting.

Some of the lighting companies do make a UPS that is listed for emergency lighting (Lithonia for example), but I believe they are quite expensive. You are probably better off with the unit equipment.

 

[iwire]

Some of the lighting companies do make a UPS that is listed for emergency lighting (Lithonia for example), but I believe they are quite expensive. You are probably better off with the unit equipment.

Yes they are, we use them only when we can't use a generator and the customer does not want EBUs.

 

[hornetd]

let me see if I'm clear, because I really would like to know if it is possible to avoid using battery pack or spent any extra money I don't have to.
if I don't need to.

you think I an provide my emergency path by means of providing emergency back up from the UPS to those light fixture, of until the generator finally kick in. Even thought the UPS is not rated for the minimum required by NEC? I just want to clear.

thank you

I think that if you use listed Emergency Transfer Equipment your inspector just has to live with ten seconds or less of darkness. Maybe I completely misunderstood your original question. If the inspector is requiring instantaneous turn on of any lights that are supplied by an emergency generator through listed emergency transfer equipment then he is making up rules as he goes along. I will freely admit that every time I encounter one of that particular sub set of inspectors it makes me a little crazy.

 

[iwire]

I think that if you use listed Emergency Transfer Equipment your inspector just has to live with ten seconds or less of darkness.

I agree with that part of it.

However the power source also has to be listed for emergency use.

 

[hornetd]

I agree with that part of it.

However the power source also has to be listed for emergency use.

Iwire

You are correct of course. I should have said that clearly as well. But unless there are facts in play that have not been shared the inspector seams to think he/she can demand more than the code itself actually requires. That is the sort of behavior by a public official that makes the vitriol flow from my fingertips through the keyboard and all over cyberspace. Unqualified inspectors of all types are costing the economy millions of dollars in wasted effort every year. Most of the inspectors that I have ever worked with were well intentioned and were trying conscientiously to do a good job. It is just the few that are not only not knowledgeable but not willing to listen to anyone but themselves that I cannot stand. I like the system that has been in place in a few of the places I have worked were if the inspector is successfully appealed more than a few times their are real consequences to his/her ability to continue in the position. In most of the places I have worked there was no recourse from bad decisions. We had to overbuild it or even build it wrong "because they said so."