Breaker burning bus

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electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
The breaker is a 4 pole with ties for the middle 2 and ties for the outside 2. They feed an ac and a heat unit.
Breaker didnt trip but was burnt at bus.

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electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
Mr. Dave when you say heavy load do you mean the equipment required a larger ocpd? Bad connection, do you mean terminals werent tightened or how the breaker connects to the bus? When you say happens all the time, is this a common occurrence with BR , poor workmanship and or both?

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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Mr. Dave when you say heavy load do you mean the equipment required a larger ocpd?

Not Mr Dave but I am sure that is not what he means

Just that pug in breakers seem to fail when operated at the upper end of their rating.

To me this is one of the reason to use bolt on panels.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Mr. Dave when you say heavy load do you mean the equipment required a larger ocpd? Bad connection, do you mean terminals werent tightened or how the breaker connects to the bus? When you say happens all the time, is this a common occurrence with BR , poor workmanship and or both?

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Whether or not the load required a larger OCPD is something only you could answer. But I think what he meant is that on larger ampere ratings, there is a tendency for these older design breakers to not clamp onto the bus as well as they should. Some of this is attributable to poor designs, some of it to the fact that often, these breakers are installed in panels they were not actually designed for. The "BR" line within Cutler Hammer is short for "Bryant", an older company that became the residential arm of Westinghouse, who made breakers and panelboards that were supposedly "interchangeable" with others, like ITE / Siemens / Murray and even GE to some extent. When Eaton bought out the Westinghouse distribution product lines, they absorbed the Bryant lines, but called them Cutler Hammer "BR" series to distinguish them from the other existing Cutler Hammer product lines (which were NOT interchangeable).

Bryant was always considered the "low end" of those interchangeable product lines; their quality was never that good, which is one reason for their demise I suppose. But the installed base was huge, too big for Eaton to ignore, so they still sell them.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
Not Mr Dave but I am sure that is not what he means

Just that pug in breakers seem to fail when operated at the upper end of their rating.

To me this is one of the reason to use bolt on panels.
That's what I meant. I just swapped out a bad breaker to a new spot in a panel that went to an electric heater the day before Christmas.

I could tell it was a BR breaker based on the description.
 

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
These were apartments. Out of town. Basically this crew does all of them. The problem is in one bldg , multiple panels.
They do the work correctly with the correct ocpd so I was trying to get info on how and when this happens so I can figure out where we failed.

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
All the "interchangeables" are "low end". This does happen even on QO breakers occasionally though, haven't really seen it on Cutler Hammer CH, but haven't been around nearly as many of those as QO's either so I won't say make any claim either way for that line.
 

norcal

Senior Member
Whether or not the load required a larger OCPD is something only you could answer. But I think what he meant is that on larger ampere ratings, there is a tendency for these older design breakers to not clamp onto the bus as well as they should. Some of this is attributable to poor designs, some of it to the fact that often, these breakers are installed in panels they were not actually designed for. The "BR" line within Cutler Hammer is short for "Bryant", an older company that became the residential arm of Westinghouse, who made breakers and panelboards that were supposedly "interchangeable" with others, like ITE / Siemens / Murray and even GE to some extent. When Eaton bought out the Westinghouse distribution product lines, they absorbed the Bryant lines, but called them Cutler Hammer "BR" series to distinguish them from the other existing Cutler Hammer product lines (which were NOT interchangeable).

Bryant was always considered the "low end" of those interchangeable product lines; their quality was never that good, which is one reason for their demise I suppose. But the installed base was huge, too big for Eaton to ignore, so they still sell them.

By the time Eaton bought the Westinghouse electrical div.the Bryant name had been dropped in favor of branding them as Westinghouse, Eaton advertised them as "Engineered Value", I'd call it cheap, but that does not make good advertising.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
It also happens with equipment other than panels. The stab-in connections on some size 3 and 4 breaker buckets tend to fail too....especially with loads that cycle a lot.
 

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
Given the competitive pricing for apartments I better start looking for a solution
Maybe ill design a lower end panel that has spaces for bolt in type breakers that are only for equipment.


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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Given the competitive pricing for apartments I better start looking for a solution
Maybe ill design a lower end panel that has spaces for bolt in type breakers that are only for equipment.


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Good luck:)

Square D already has the NQ series panel that accepts either plug on or bolt on QO breakers in every slot, they are not in the low end design price range though.
 

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
Kwired you know and i know ifi didnt know the answer to my question thenits doubtful ill invent s better product.
But thanks for the encouragement.

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