Are rodents considered a form of physical damage ?

[mwm1752]

If rodents were considered physical damage, NM would be outlawed -- Once doing a remodel I found rodents whom took their last bite prior to electroctution -- the owner did not see any issues while I explained the circumstances & did not want to replaced any more than needed for the upgrade -- I had know of a location in which one of my little friends had met his demise -- when we were underneath it, I simply tapped the area in the ceiling & caused bones & sparks to erupt -- He immediately agreed with my assessment. IMO physical damage is based upon a blunt force that cause wiring methods to fail

 

[gadfly56]

The wiring in this house was "subject to physical damage" too. But we don't expect that contractor to run rigid RMC encased in concrete for this hopefully unlikely event.

If this isn't Photoshopped I'm impressed with the carrying capacity of the ceiling joists.

 

[growler]

The carrying capactity of the ceiling joist may not be above normal. Even a 2" X 6" joist run accross an interior wall will support a large amount of weight. It depends on where the weight is sitting ( near the support wall ).

 

[don_resqcapt19]

If rodents were considered physical damage, NM would be outlawed --...

How is it not physical damage?

Are you saying that cables or conductors that have had their insulation chewed off by rodents has not be physically damaged?

 

[kwired]

I have very rarely found an electrocuted rat. Seen them chew off insulation on live 277 volt to ground conductors many times but never get electrocuted. They must normally wear proper PPE when working live

 

[gadfly56]

How is it not physical damage?

Are you saying that cables or conductors that have had their insulation chewed off by rodents has not be physically damaged?

The point is that installation methods are supposed to take account of the likelihood of physical damage. If rodent attack is considered always likely, then you should install accordingly; i.e., never use NM.

 

[mwm1752]

How is it not physical damage?

Are you saying that cables or conductors that have had their insulation chewed off by rodents has not be physically damaged?

Are we not discussing per code definition??? That was certainly thr premise of the statement -- so sorry to confused you wiring methods are defined by specific product used -- there is no code for NM as not permitted per rodents in a residence

 

[macmikeman]

The wiring in this house was "subject to physical damage" too. But we don't expect that contractor to run rigid RMC encased in concrete for this hopefully unlikely event.

Where have I seen this exact post before?.......... hmmmmmmmm....

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Are we not discussing per code definition??? That was certainly thr premise of the statement -- so sorry to confused you wiring methods are defined by specific product used -- there is no code for NM as not permitted per rodents in a residence

The discussion heading was "are rodents considered a form of physical damage?"

It is my position that damage caused by rodents is in fact physical damage and if you have rodents and a wiring method that says you shall not install where subject to physical damage, then you can't use that wiring method without providing protection.

NM does not have a "blanket" do not install where subject to physical damage, but it does require that exposed NM have protection from physical damage.

 

[Chamuit]

I would look at it from the view of whether, in the regular course of the spaces use, there is a reasonable expectation of damage occurring. The barn/stall is a good example. You have a large animal that moves around in the space and can readily damage anything within reach inadvertently or not. Rodents, on the other hand, are not an expected inhabitant of a dwelling.

 

[mwm1752]

A barn or stall can be labeled as agricultural which still allows a cable type(UF) of installation. I have no problem with being aware of conditions that may happen & would not have issues with above code installs but to fail a electrical inspection based on ifs & maybe's can land you in no mans land -- how many rats does it take to call the violation? 1 - 4 - 100 - maybe we could use an exterminator contractor as a form of protection article NIMBY 101.3(1)(A)-- This forum is often filled with "inspection making me do blah blah & its not in the book -- Rodents can cause physical damage but they are not a defined NEC version of physical damage. What if you live in hurracane alley should we disallow NM cause a roof can't keep the attic dry??

 

[knowingthis]

Rodents do cause physical damage, but I doubt you should treat them as an expected form of physical damage in homes. That would change the way houses are currently wired. Rodents can get nigh on anywhere they please. As long as the head fits through an opening the rest of the body can follow, at least this is true with rats. Those little boogers love rubber and some plastics. When I had a pet rat ,once upon a time, I'd allow her to roam my room as long as I was there with her and she absolutely demolished every eraser I had. She even got caught gnawing on a few cords.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...Rodents can cause physical damage but they are not a defined NEC version of physical damage. What if you live in hurracane alley should we disallow NM cause a roof can't keep the attic dry??

Please show me the NEC definition of what can cause physical damage.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Rodents do cause physical damage, but I doubt you should treat them as an expected form of physical damage in homes. That would change the way houses are currently wired. Rodents can get nigh on anywhere they please. As long as the head fits through an opening the rest of the body can follow, at least this is true with rats. Those little boogers love rubber and some plastics. When I had a pet rat ,once upon a time, I'd allow her to roam my room as long as I was there with her and she absolutely demolished every eraser I had. She even got caught gnawing on a few cords.

The code does not require that NM be protected from physical damage unless it is installed exposed, so you could not limit the use of NM in a dwelling unit based on that.

We can write codes like the ones that apply to about 1/2 of the population in Illinois...NM not permitted

 

[knowingthis]

The code does not require that NM be protected from physical damage unless it is installed exposed, so you could not limit the use of NM in a dwelling unit based on that.

We can write codes like the ones that apply to about 1/2 of the population in Illinois...NM not permitted

True
I was looking at it from the perspective of the NM being installed exposing it to physical damage from rodentia instead of it being exposed and subject to physical damage... not the code perspective.

 

[mwm1752]

True
I was looking at it from the perspective of the NM being installed exposing it to physical damage from rodentia instead of it being exposed and subject to physical damage... not the code perspective.

Ohhhhhhmy:

 

[romex jockey]

I'm in something of an agriculturally rich area, so i've a lot of art 547 experience(s)

I don't believe i've seen a facility w/o some sort of critters , mice, rats , skunks, racoons , fisher cats ,etc...

They get mighty inventive when hungry & cold , and damage a lot more than wiring.

~RJ~

 

[cowboyjwc]

A barn or stall can be labeled as agricultural which still allows a cable type(UF) of installation. I have no problem with being aware of conditions that may happen & would not have issues with above code installs but to fail a electrical inspection based on ifs & maybe's can land you in no mans land -- how many rats does it take to call the violation? 1 - 4 - 100 - maybe we could use an exterminator contractor as a form of protection article NIMBY 101.3(1)(A)-- This forum is often filled with "inspection making me do blah blah & its not in the book -- Rodents can cause physical damage but they are not a defined NEC version of physical damage. What if you live in hurracane alley should we disallow NM cause a roof can't keep the attic dry??

I never said that as an inspector I wouldn't pass it, I said that as a contractor you would be remiss if you didn't take it into consideration when wiring something like a barn or out building.

 

[romex jockey]

Then there's how some folks keep a barn.

Feed is always a problem to contain, and always a stall much issue as well

Some rats i've seen could wear a fedora , or saddle a small child :lol:

so i guess i'm more open to a 1-4-100 rat sliding scale ....~RJ~

 

[mwm1752]

Then there's how some folks keep a barn.

Feed is always a problem to contain, and always a stall much issue as well

Some rats i've seen could wear a fedora , or saddle a small child :lol:

so i guess i'm more open to a 1-4-100 rat sliding scale ....~RJ~

I was always ask if I was born in a barn -:rant: were they calling me a rat