Inspectors and calling items

[petersonra]

Yes. I am sorry. My words were not chosen correctly. The insulation is cut and the copper is exposed. I did not see that the copper itself was damaged. He can repair the existing wire easily, tape, shrink tube, etc.

my question was more along the lines that this was not caught on previous inspections and that is why the EC is angry... So on and so forth...

It is not the job of the inspector to catch the deficiencies of the installer.

It is the job of the installer to do it right regardless of what the inspector says, or even whether there is an inspection at all.

 

[wrobotronic]

Also, I have no problem with tape or shrink tube at all. But it should be fixed. I'm not recommending anything to the EC. It's up to him to decide how he wants to make the repairs. As long as they are made correctly and with a listed means. Am I wrong in this assessment?

 

[mwm1752]

When the romex was installed, it appears he took a knife and rung it out to get his tails and consequently completely cut though the insulation and exposing the copper.

Why would anyone cut within the 6" entering the box?

 

[jumper]

Also, I have no problem with tape or shrink tube at all. But it should be fixed. I'm not recommending anything to the EC. It's up to him to decide how he wants to make the repairs. As long as they are made correctly and with a listed means. Am I wrong in this assessment?

Nope. If fact you can have my permission to Gibbs smack him twice if he continues to balk.

 

[wrobotronic]

Nope. If fact you can have my permission to Gibbs smack him twice if he continues to balk.

I am not sure what this Gibbs smack is you speak of. While I enjoy the idea of smacking people in general, I will need more info as to the type of smack this is exactly....

 

[wrobotronic]

I am not sure what this Gibbs smack is you speak of. While I enjoy the idea of smacking people in general, I will need more info as to the type of smack this is exactly....

NCIS reference? I like it. Gibbs smack it is, lol.

 

[jumper]

NCIS reference? I like it. Gibbs smack it is, lol.

:happyyes:

 

[Strathead]

It is not the job of the inspector to catch the deficiencies of the installer.

It is the job of the installer to do it right regardless of what the inspector says, or even whether there is an inspection at all.

I was wondering if anyone else would take this position. I feel the same way. I would never try to weasel out of an honest oversight by the inspector. There is nothing in the manual that says he has to point out deficiencies until it is very costly to fix them every time.

 

[Strathead]

Also, I have no problem with tape or shrink tube at all. But it should be fixed. I'm not recommending anything to the EC. It's up to him to decide how he wants to make the repairs. As long as they are made correctly and with a listed means. Am I wrong in this assessment?

No one has mentioned the person paying the bills. If this was my house, I would insist on new wire. I paid for a new installation, and I wouldn't pay the bill until it was done.

 

[gadfly56]

No one has mentioned the person paying the bills. If this was my house, I would insist on new wire. I paid for a new installation, and I wouldn't pay the bill until it was done.

As the owner, you may have limited choices unless there is some type of AIA style contract in place. In general, on a hand shake sort of basis, you are buying an installation that provides electrical power in a code-compliant manner. If the AHJ is satisfied with the repair method you may not have much legal basis to demand more. Again, absent a contract worded in such a manner as to allow that sort of thing. After all, the wire is in a box behind a receptacle and face plate. It's hard to argue that the "fit and finish" is somehow degraded by the repair; no one is going to see it.

 

[jumper]

As the owner, you may have limited choices unless there is some type of AIA style contract in place. In general, on a hand shake sort of basis, you are buying an installation that provides electrical power in a code-compliant manner. If the AHJ is satisfied with the repair method you may not have much legal basis to demand more. Again, absent a contract worded in such a manner as to allow that sort of thing. After all, the wire is in a box behind a receptacle and face plate. It's hard to argue that the "fit and finish" is somehow degraded by the repair; no one is going to see it.

Yep.

 

[Strathead]

As the owner, you may have limited choices unless there is some type of AIA style contract in place. In general, on a hand shake sort of basis, you are buying an installation that provides electrical power in a code-compliant manner. If the AHJ is satisfied with the repair method you may not have much legal basis to demand more. Again, absent a contract worded in such a manner as to allow that sort of thing. After all, the wire is in a box behind a receptacle and face plate. It's hard to argue that the "fit and finish" is somehow degraded by the repair; no one is going to see it.

I know what you are saying, but they would have a fight on their hands. I have been burned a couple of times when I let my wife negotiate home repairs, (not electrical) and the last couple I reviewed and insisted on clarifications. I review contracts regularly so the contractors kind of guessed that I know what I was doing and the work went better.

 

[nvlct11]

I'm sure the inspector got all worked up and told the guy to replace the wires. Probably a young inspector full of piss and vinegar. I'm sure the EC would tape or heat shrink the wires.

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[JFletcher]

Why would anyone cut within the 6" entering the box?

This. I only use a razor knife if there is plenty of extra wire (like 8+" from the face of the box, not 6" from the back) which will get cut off on trimout anyway.

As a HO, I would be seriously unhappy to know my brand-new electrical system has been compromised by what is really inept work. Why trust the guy to fix it correctly when he cant invest in a proper pair of strippers, or teaching his helpers, to begin with?

If small gauge NM gave him those problems, I shudder to think about the larger cables and UF.

 

[kwired]

Why would anyone cut within the 6" entering the box?

I believe what he tried to say was that the method of removing outer sheath ended up damaging conductor insulation. Apparently the installer circled the cable with some kind of knife to cut the sheath and cut too deep - probably before inserting cable into the box.

 

[juz720]

I failed him on 110.3A(my judgement was that the insulation had been compromised, therefore the rating) 110.12B (on top of the workmanlike manner statement, "there shall be no damaged parts, that may adversely affect safe operation..." The conductors are clearly damaged)

I would suggest he place color coded phasing tape on whatever conductor has the copper wire expose(if it's easier - a quick fixer?!). That illuminates confusion, and he will learn for future reference to be extra careful. I'll also keep a positive relationship in the field - as you both will cross continuous paths.

Phasing tape is legal to use in this situation!! Just like marking 3 Phase Loads....

What's a good contact for you as well Sir? Code changes, and you're the guy for clarity issues. I appreciate merging with you here.

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[juz720]

Also, I have no problem with tape or shrink tube at all. But it should be fixed. I'm not recommending anything to the EC. It's up to him to decide how he wants to make the repairs. As long as they are made correctly and with a listed means. Am I wrong in this assessment?

Recommendation would be nice. But as a EC, he as well should know what's acceptable to fixing a error on his part - if he's knowledgeable enough; so in that area I get your point!!

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[romex jockey]

It's worse than you may think.....

It's worse than you may think.....

It is not the job of the inspector to catch the deficiencies of the installer.

It is the job of the installer to do it right regardless of what the inspector says, or even whether there is an inspection at all.

Very true...

The 'state' has sovereign immunity, an EC does not.

I lived this on a very large , and very 'political' job where every ahj 'looked the other way'

We (the workers of all trades with any shred of integrity) had to fight tooth/nail to get anything done up to standard. That included the archy's and engineers who bowed to said factions btw.

The owners of the facility then sued everyone for installing TO THEIR OWN DECISIONS .

It was my ahj's last job, he retired to a location 2000 miles away, and during a one /one departure coffee meeting apologized to me that his hands were tied.

FF to the next ahj, who can NOT enforce an effin' thing upon anything HE deems below standard, because it HAS ALREADY BEEN PASSED, which may well be the conundrum here.

~RJ~

 

[George Stolz]

my question was more along the lines that this was not caught on previous inspections and that is why the EC is angry... So on and so forth...

Phased inspections (i.e. Rough and Trim) by no means relieve him of his responsibility. Just because an inspector misses a required receptacle (6' / 12') at rough does not mean the EC is guaranteed a pass on the issue at trim. The electrician needs to suck it up and treat it as a teachable moment.

 

[user 100]

The electrician needs to suck it up and treat it as a teachable moment.

.....as well as a tape-able moment.:happyyes: