Arc fault nightmare

[delfadelfa]

I had a customer call about and arc-fault tripping when his treadmill is running. This is a two year old condo. He did not have a problem until he bought a new treadmill and plugged it in a finished basement receptacle. It does not trip the treadmill circuit but two other arc-fault breakers. I pulled both breakers and made sure they were wired with the correct neutrals. I added a 20 amp dedicated circuit by the panel for the treadmill and started the treadmill, within a minute both breakers tripped. I checked the phases to see if the tripped breakers were on the same phase as my new circuit. Only one arc-fault was on the same phase as the new circuit with the treadmill. I switched both arc-fault breakers, this made no difference, the new arc-fault breakers tripped only when the treadmill was running just like the other ones. The treadmill is rated for a total of 11 amps, it never pulled more than 7 amps. The two tripping arc-fault breakers will not trip when the treadmill is not running. Has anybody run into anything like this where a circuit not connected to anything else in the house is tripping two other circuits??

 

[GoldDigger]

I had a customer call about and arc-fault tripping when his treadmill is running. This is a two year old condo. He did not have a problem until he bought a new treadmill and plugged it in a finished basement receptacle. It does not trip the treadmill circuit but two other arc-fault breakers. I pulled both breakers and made sure they were wired with the correct neutrals. I added a 20 amp dedicated circuit by the panel for the treadmill and started the treadmill, within a minute both breakers tripped. I checked the phases to see if the tripped breakers were on the same phase as my new circuit. Only one arc-fault was on the same phase as the new circuit with the treadmill. I switched both arc-fault breakers, this made no difference, the new arc-fault breakers tripped only when the treadmill was running just like the other ones. The treadmill is rated for a total of 11 amps, it never pulled more than 7 amps. The two tripping arc-fault breakers will not trip when the treadmill is not running. Has anybody run into anything like this where a circuit not connected to anything else in the house is tripping two other circuits??

This is actually not uncommon. The arc signature waveform is getting into all of the breakers, but can only trip one which is currently passing 5A or more into its own load (threshold for series arc detection).
Treadmills are notorious for generating RF which is interpreted as an arc fault. Something to do with the DC motor drive most likely.
I would try two things:
1. Put an RF filter on the cord of the treadmill, as close to the treadmill as possible. (NOT a surge protector!)
2. If that does not work, try a newer manufacture or different brand AFCI breaker.

 

[resistance]

This use to happen all the time when the AFCI’s first hit the scene. I’m surprised it’s still happening. Manufacture?

 

[delfadelfa]

The breakers are Cutlerhammer BR 15 amp

 

[resistance]

The breakers are Cutlerhammer BR 15 amp

Gold gave you some good info, I would try the RF filter. CH is a good brand!

 

[mike1061]

Does moving the breaker for the treadmill away from the Arc fault breakers make sence? Seperating the wire in the panel?
Thanks
Mike

 

[GoldDigger]

Does moving the breaker for the treadmill away from the Arc fault breakers make sence? Seperating the wire in the panel?
Thanks
Mike

There is such good coupling through the bus bars that I would not expect either of those moves to make a difference, but it is worth trying if all else fails.
Of the two, I would start by separating the wires and by keeping treadmill circuit hot and neutral as close to each other as possible. Even put that breaker closest to the neutral bar to improve that.
Note: theory only, not field tested!

 

[K8MHZ]

Make sure you have the latest AFCI breakers.

CH has released several revisions due to false tripping.

For some reason CH BR AFCI breakers have more problems than others. CH even has a 'special' AFCI for ham radio operators, the word HAM is part of the S/N and is on the breakers.

You may have to spend some time on the phone with CH.

Or replace the CH with Square D. That seems to work, also most times.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

This is actually not uncommon. The arc signature waveform is getting into all of the breakers, but can only trip one which is currently passing 5A or more into its own load (threshold for series arc detection).
Treadmills are notorious for generating RF which is interpreted as an arc fault. Something to do with the DC motor drive most likely.
I would try two things:
1. Put an RF filter on the cord of the treadmill, as close to the treadmill as possible. (NOT a surge protector!)
2. If that does not work, try a newer manufacture or different brand AFCI breaker.

I am sorry, but that should not be the responsibility of the EC or the home owner. That should be the responsibility of the AFCI manufacture who chooses to make devices that are not compatible with typical items used in the home.

 

[peter d]

I am sorry, but that should not be the responsibility of the EC or the home owner. That should be the responsibility of the AFCI manufacture who chooses to make devices that are not compatible with typical items used in the home.

There was one industry advocate here who said this kind of nuisance tripping was because of wiring errors, not the AFCI itself. :roll:

 

[JFletcher]

I am sorry, but that should not be the responsibility of the EC or the home owner. That should be the responsibility of the AFCI manufacture who chooses to make devices that are not compatible with typical items used in the home.

or the treadmill mfg. every electronic device Ive seen in forever has a little sticker that says it's compliant with FCC part 15, which iirc relates to interference with other devices/eqpt.

eta: this video is worth watching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsILD0Fce1s

 

[K8MHZ]

or the treadmill mfg. every electronic device Ive seen in forever has a little sticker that says it's compliant with FCC part 15, which iirc relates to interference with other devices/eqpt.

eta: this video is worth watching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsILD0Fce1s

Part 15 is only about radio interference. It wouldn't matter if it weren't, the FCC seldom enforces it anyway.

 

[K8MHZ]

I am sorry, but that should not be the responsibility of the EC or the home owner. That should be the responsibility of the AFCI manufacture who chooses to make devices that are not compatible with typical items used in the home.

This.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

or the treadmill mfg. every electronic device Ive seen in forever has a little sticker that says it's compliant with FCC part 15, which iirc relates to interference with other devices/eqpt.

eta: this video is worth watching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsILD0Fce1s

Part 15 only says the device can't cause interference with communications systems. I don't see how an AFCI is a communications system.
From an ARRL document.

To help emphasize the secondary status of all devices operated under Part 15, the rules stipulate that the devices must not cause harmful interference to other radio services and must accept any interference caused by the legal operation of other radio services.

Sorry K8MHZ....posted without scrolling down...a bad habit of mine.
[h=5][/h]

 

[Fulthrotl]

There is such good coupling through the bus bars that I would not expect either of those moves to make a difference, but it is worth trying if all else fails.

think outside the box.... how about moving the offending device to
the house next door?

 

[peter d]

think outside the box.... how about moving the offending device to
the house next door?

Better yet, just run a cord to the neighbors non-afci protected circuit

 

[kwired]

Seem's entirely possible that the neighbor's AFCI's may trip when the treadmill is being used - and they (or their electrician) will be even more confused as to why.

 

[fisherelectric]

Any advice as to what type of RF filter would help with a problem like the OP is having with these arc fault breakers?

 

[K8MHZ]

Any advice as to what type of RF filter would help with a problem like the OP is having with these arc fault breakers?

I think Eaton would have the best answer.

The research I did on treadmills tripping AFCI's usually led to a surge protector being used to correct the problem. I really don't see how an RF filter would make a difference, but maybe it would.

 

[K8MHZ]

Seem's entirely possible that the neighbor's AFCI's may trip when the treadmill is being used - and they (or their electrician) will be even more confused as to why.

Yes, it's possible, and such a 'remote tripping' has been done and proven and put on YouTube when a ham radio was tripping breakers in a neighbor's house that was 400 feet away.

CH BR's, IIRC.