Vending Machine ( GFI Protected ? )

[Davebones]

We have a small cafeteria in our plant . They are installing a couple of drink machines . These just are refrigerators with glass doors that you open to get your drink and pay at the cash register .The doors get locked at night . Am I correct that because they do not take payment into the machine we " do not " have to put them on GFI circuit ?

 

[jumper]

They are not vending machines, but putting them on GFCI will not hurt anything.

Definition:

Vending Machine.
Any self-service device that dispenses
products or merchandise without the necessity of replenish-
ing the device between each vending operation and is de-
signed to require insertion of coin, paper currency, token,
card, key, or receipt of payment by other means.

 

[iwire]

They are not vending machines, but putting them on GFCI will not hurt anything.

I had the same issue at an office building break room, one glass door refrigerator full of FREE drinks for employees in each of three break rooms.

The electrical inspector called it a vending machine, I said no and pointed this out to him.

Definition:

Vending Machine.
Any self-service device that dispenses
products or merchandise without the necessity of replenish-
ing the device between each vending operation and is de-
signed to require insertion of coin, paper currency, token,
card, key, or receipt of payment by other means.

He said he would talk to his boss.

Well he did and I was told that the code book definition was a mistake and that I was putting GFCIs in. So I did and charged the customer for the extra.

 

[charlie b]

. . . I was told that the code book definition was a mistake . . . .

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I'll just settle for a shake of the head. :happysad:

 

[growler]

These just are refrigerators with glass doors that you open to get your drink and pay at the cash register .

They are not vending machines, but putting them on GFCI will not hurt anything.

Definition:

Vending Machine.
Any self-service device that dispenses
products or merchandise without the necessity of replenish-
ing the device between each vending operation and is de-
signed to require insertion of coin, paper currency, token,
card, key, or receipt of payment by other means.

What about that "or receipt of payment by other means", I think I can kind of see that paying at the cash register as payment by other means.

It may look like a cooler or refrigerator with a glass door but it is being used to "vend" a product.

I don't think the definition is wrong I think it is more all inclusive so that any type of cooler or other device used to vend a product could be called a vending machince because of use.

 

[growler]

I had the same issue at an office building break room, one glass door refrigerator full of FREE drinks for employees in each of three break rooms.

The electrical inspector called it a vending machine, I said no and pointed this out to him.



He said he would talk to his boss.

Well he did and I was told that the code book definition was a mistake and that I was putting GFCIs in. So I did and charged the customer for the extra.

Bob I think you were right and since they were giving the drinks away free it was not a vending machine.

 

[ADub]

Bob I think you were right and since they were giving the drinks away free it was not a vending machine.

But what's the difference between getting a beverage from a community fridge and walking away and getting a beverage from a glass door fridge and paying for it somewhere else? Electrically I mean.


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[texie]

They are not vending machines, but putting them on GFCI will not hurt anything.

Definition:

Vending Machine.
Any self-service device that dispenses
products or merchandise without the necessity of replenish-
ing the device between each vending operation and is de-
signed to require insertion of coin, paper currency, token,
card, key, or receipt of payment by other means.

Agreed, and this is the same issue as the typical beverage dispensers at the convenience store or fast food joint-they are not a vending machine either. I seem to recall that there were a number of proposals for 2017 to redo the definition of a vending machine to clarify and or cover these types of things.

 

[growler]

Definition:

Vending Machine.
Any self-service device that dispenses
products or merchandise without the necessity of replenish-
ing the device between each vending operation and is de-
signed to require insertion of coin, paper currency, token,
card, key, or receipt of payment by other means.

But what's the difference between getting a beverage from a community fridge and walking away and getting a beverage from a glass door fridge and paying for it somewhere else? Electrically I mean.

Electrically I don't think there would be any difference in risk of shock.
I didn't have anything to do with writeing the definition.

Since vend means "to sell" the collection of money seems important to someone.

 

[iwire]

But what's the difference between getting a beverage from a community fridge and walking away and getting a beverage from a glass door fridge and paying for it somewhere else?

Statistics.

People were being shocked or electrocuted by vending machines more often then refrigerators.

In my case the refrigerators are owned by the tenants and wont be moved until they stop working.

OTOH vending machines are typically owned by vending companies and are frequently moved from location to location resulting in damaged cords.

At least that is what I assume, it could be all wrong.

 

[ADub]

Statistics.

People were being shocked or electrocuted by vending machines more often then refrigerators.

In my case the refrigerators are owned by the tenants and wont be moved until they stop working.

OTOH vending machines are typically owned by vending companies and are frequently moved from location to location resulting in damaged cords.

At least that is what I assume, it could be all wrong.

I agree with all your statements. My argument is that you can't call a glass door fridge in a break area where you pay for the goods at another location a vending machine, the only difference between that and a standard break room fridge is the transaction of money.


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[GoldDigger]

I agree with all your statements. My argument is that you can't call a glass door fridge in a break area where you pay for the goods at another location a vending machine, the only difference between that and a standard break room fridge is the transaction of money.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It (the care and maintenance of the device) will also vary with ownership.
A break room fridge is usually (but not always) owned by the company whose employees will be using it.
A vending machine is more likely (but not always) to be owned by a third part which supplies its contents.
I agree with you that if the glass door fridge is locally owned, then where or if money is collected for its contents should not make a difference.

 

[iwire]

the only difference between that and a standard break room fridge is the transaction of money.

And the listing.

Vending machines are listed as vending machines and fridges are not.

But it was not worth fighting, I passed the cost to the customer letting them know this was beyond the code requirements.

 

[growler]

My argument is that you can't call a glass door fridge in a break area where you pay for the goods at another location a vending machine, the only difference between that and a standard break room fridge is the transaction of money.

There are lots of vending machines out there these days that are not coin operated. Think of the drink machines at the check out line at the grocery store or home depot where you reach in and get your beverage and pay at the checkout counter.

That glass door fridge in the breakroom, can you bring your own beverage and leave it there to keep cold until it's needed or is the fridge used for the vending (sale) of beverages. To run a vending company you would have to keep records, have a business license and pay taxes.

In many areas anyone is allowed to do electrical work if they don't charge for it but once there is the transaction of money then the rules change. Why should it be different for the sale of beverages ?

 

[kwired]

There are lots of vending machines out there these days that are not coin operated. Think of the drink machines at the check out line at the grocery store or home depot where you reach in and get your beverage and pay at the checkout counter.

That glass door fridge in the breakroom, can you bring your own beverage and leave it there to keep cold until it's needed or is the fridge used for the vending (sale) of beverages. To run a vending company you would have to keep records, have a business license and pay taxes.

In many areas anyone is allowed to do electrical work if they don't charge for it but once there is the transaction of money then the rules change. Why should it be different for the sale of beverages ?

The machine is not taking payment, it is just a place for storage/display. It don't have to take cash either, could be by card reader or other electronic means, tokens, etc. If you have to present a payment method before you can obtain product via automation of the machine it is a NEC defined vending machine. Otherwise all the freezers, coolers or even warm product cases in a grocery or C store would also be vending machines.

 

[growler]

The machine is not taking payment, it is just a place for storage/display. It don't have to take cash either, could be by card reader or other electronic means, tokens, etc. If you have to present a payment method before you can obtain product via automation of the machine it is a NEC defined vending machine. Otherwise all the freezers, coolers or even warm product cases in a grocery or C store would also be vending machines.

Are these cord and plug connected? Do they belong to a vending company?

I have installed icecream coolers that did belong to an icecream vendor and I never gave it a second thought until now ( GFCI protection wasn't required at the time ). I thought GFCI protection would be a good idea but the company was against it and it wasn't required so it wasn't provided.

I think the NEC needs to come up with a better definition of what a vending machine realy is. The NEC definition say it's self service and you say via automation but I don't see that in their definition.

 

[kwired]

What about a gas pump at the C store ? Meets all of the criteria set forth by the NEC definition of vending machine. What about a coin operated copy machine ( few of them still out there, I think )?

I think the NEC needs to come up with a better definition of what a vending machine realy is. The NEC definition say it's self service and you say via automation but I don't see that in their definition.

Maybe if you read the information referenced in the informational note after 422.51 it will clear that up some?

Informational Note: For further information, see ANSI/UL 541-2010, Standard for Refrigerated Vending Machines, or ANSI/UL 751-2010, Standard for Vending Machines.

Before 2014 only cord connected vending machines required GFCI, which adding non cord and plug connected machines does open it up to a lot more possibilities of what may be a vending machine with the current NEC definition.

 

[growler]

Before 2014 only cord connected vending machines required GFCI, which adding non cord and plug connected machines does open it up to a lot more possibilities of what may be a vending machine with the current NEC definition.

Kwired I'm not trying to say what is and what is not a vending machine.

What I can see is that it could be a problem for an inspector trying to decide what a vending machine really is.

 

[kwired]

Kwired I'm not trying to say what is and what is not a vending machine.

What I can see is that it could be a problem for an inspector trying to decide what a vending machine really is.

I understand, and just discovered the non cord and plug requirement that was added in 2014. That alone makes this more difficult to determine IMO. Before that I could see missing or damaged EGC pins in the cord caps of machines contributing to why they wanted GFCI protection.

 

[Davebones]

Just found out we are getting some new food line serving equipment . We are putting in GFI's for all 120 v , 15 and 20 amp outlets . My next question is some of the new equipment has " 30 amp , 120 Volt " cord ends . These are salad bar , hot serve , prep sections . Are these 30 amp 120 volt outlets required to be GFI protected ??