electric baseboard heaters

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xara

Member
Location
minneapolis, mn
I want to know what breakers to use for electric heaters.
I have five 750 watt heaters, one 1500 watt, one 2000 watt, and one 500 watt heater. All are 240 V. So I calculated the amps for each and multiplied by 1.25 and got:
750=4 amps each 1500=8 amps 2000=10 amps 500=2amps
Then I divided the amps up to fit into three double pole 15 amp breakers:
8+4+2=14 amps
4+4+4=12 amps
10+4=14 amp
Did I do this right?
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Xara I would stay away from amps and work with wattage but you have the basic idea

at 240v and 16 amps (.80 * 20amps) = 240 * 16 = 3840 watts max per 20 amp circuit

If you use a 15 amp circuit then you have 240*12 = 2880 watts max

So you can have the 2000 watt heater along with the 1500 watt on a circuit
All 5-- 750 watt heaters would take a cir.
Now you are left with a 500 watt heater.

I would put the 2000 watt heater on one circuit then install the 1500 watt and the 500 watt heater on another circuit-- these could be 15 amp.

I would then put the 5 heaters (750) on a 20 amp circuit
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
Xara, you will probably get more help by replying to a topic you already started rather than making a new one.

Yes, your math is correct, tho I generally do not round until the final answer. The rest of your install is design considerations: is there any chance the HO will want another baseboard heater in the future? If so, go with 20A breakers and #12 all around. How much panel space do you have? if it's tight, another vote for #12 and 20A breakers, or even #10 with 30A, which would require just two circuits. How many thermostats?
 

xara

Member
Location
minneapolis, mn
so you are saying it is up to the nec code (the way I did it) but it is not the best way to do it? I did not quit understand your answer.
6 thermostats
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
so you are saying it is up to the nec code (the way I did it) but it is not the best way to do it? I did not quit understand your answer.
6 thermostats

I don't think JFletcher is saying your was is not the best way, but merely pointing out that you might pause and consider the options. Perhaps there is information you haven't given us that makes your option the best one. There is frequently more than one way to get a code-compliant installation, and specific circumstances may favor one approach over another, that's all.
 
Xara,

Like the others have said, even if the method you listed in your post isn't the optimal way some would do it, you still do have the right idea. In the end, it doesn't matter all that much which heaters go on which circuit so long as it is always designed so that each circuit is rated to handle whatever combination of heater loads you put on it at all times, and that each of these circuits are also properly protected within their maximum allowable current ratings. The only problem I have with your original proposal would be having the 14A load scheduling on any of these three 15A circuits. Although there are some exceptions in the NEC which allow certain fixed loads to be rated at 100% of the circuit protection rating, it is a good rule of thumb to always keep your max. full-load at or below 80% of that circuits current protection rating (in this case that would be 12 amps).

As one of the others mentioned; running 20A circuits for each of these rather than 15 might not be a bad practice in this case. Not only would it allow for future load expansion (i.e, if another small heater or two are later wanted), but this will allow you to stay well below 80% of the current protection rating, and would likely avoid a situation where nuisance tripping of your circuit breakers may be caused. Remember that although resistive heating elements have no where near the magnitude of in-rush current, that say a motor would have when starting up; heating elements always draw a little more current when first switched on cold (lower coil resistance), than their rating indicate (which are spec'd out for what the heater draws once thermal equilibrium has been reached in the coil following the brief heat-up period to its rated temperature). By all of this I'm simply saying that its possible that by designing your circuit to have a 14A full-load, you may end up causing brief overloading of the circuit, especially if multiple heaters were simultaneously starting cold. This of course wouldn't in any way be dangerous if your circuit was sized properly according to its rated protection, but like I said, could be a major nuisance if you start popping circuit breakers left and right.

In my honest opinion, I feel that 20A circuits are the best choice in this case. 30A circuits I personally feel would be overkill in your situation (unless of course you find that a circuit will end up requiring more than 16 amps of current capability (80% of 20A). A 30 amp circuit would also require upping the wire size to #10 AWG Copper at all points in the circuit, and aside from being more expensive, started entering the realm of "damn this wire is a pain in the ass to work with!". Anyway, Hope this helps.
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
so you are saying it is up to the nec code (the way I did it) but it is not the best way to do it? I did not quit understand your answer.
6 thermostats

Yes, your way is NEC compliant. and gadfly is right, I was saying the rest is up to you, how you actually install all of this. You could run two 30A circuits, or 3 20, 4 15, some mix of, etc. If your panel is centrally located, more home runs may be easier to install than daisy chaining cable from t-stat box to t-stat box. Of course it depends on how much room you have in the panel for new 2p breakers too. There are almost an infinite number of ways of correctly installing everything here. The "best way to do it", I cant answer that - for some installers, the best way is the cheapest, while others may go for ease of installation, least materials, what they know/are comfortable with, or any of a number of factors that they think is "best".

The 16A comes from allowable max continuous loading on a 20A circuit (80%) for fixed heating. Your multiplying the loads by 125% essentially does the same thing; the math comes out the same either way.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Xara,

Like the others have said, even if the method you listed in your post isn't the optimal way some would do it, you still do have the right idea. In the end, it doesn't matter all that much which heaters go on which circuit so long as it is always designed so that each circuit is rated to handle whatever combination of heater loads you put on it at all times, and that each of these circuits are also properly protected within their maximum allowable current ratings. The only problem I have with your original proposal would be having the 14A load scheduling on any of these three 15A circuits. Although there are some exceptions in the NEC which allow certain fixed loads to be rated at 100% of the circuit protection rating, it is a good rule of thumb to always keep your max. full-load at or below 80% of that circuits current protection rating (in this case that would be 12 amps).

As one of the others mentioned; running 20A circuits for each of these rather than 15 might not be a bad practice in this case. Not only would it allow for future load expansion (i.e, if another small heater or two are later wanted), but this will allow you to stay well below 80% of the current protection rating, and would likely avoid a situation where nuisance tripping of your circuit breakers may be caused. Remember that although resistive heating elements have no where near the magnitude of in-rush current, that say a motor would have when starting up; heating elements always draw a little more current when first switched on cold (lower coil resistance), than their rating indicate (which are spec'd out for what the heater draws once thermal equilibrium has been reached in the coil following the brief heat-up period to its rated temperature). By all of this I'm simply saying that its possible that by designing your circuit to have a 14A full-load, you may end up causing brief overloading of the circuit, especially if multiple heaters were simultaneously starting cold. This of course wouldn't in any way be dangerous if your circuit was sized properly according to its rated protection, but like I said, could be a major nuisance if you start popping circuit breakers left and right.

In my honest opinion, I feel that 20A circuits are the best choice in this case. 30A circuits I personally feel would be overkill in your situation (unless of course you find that a circuit will end up requiring more than 16 amps of current capability (80% of 20A). A 30 amp circuit would also require upping the wire size to #10 AWG Copper at all points in the circuit, and aside from being more expensive, started entering the realm of "damn this wire is a pain in the ass to work with!". Anyway, Hope this helps.

If you looked early in the OP, he multiplied the loads by 1.25 already. Doing it that way, 14 amps won't cause nuisance tripping because it's actually an 11.2 amp load.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Placing each heater on an individual circuit is NEC compliant, how to determine best possible way to consolidate them into less circuits really depends on information we don't have here. Things like physical locations of different sized units or which ones are on a common control vs individual controls come into play at determining such things.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
Isn't this the 2nd posting of same circumstances from xara? I've seen post closed for less due to someone asking for the forum to design electrical work. These are simple calcs for someone in the trade.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Isn't this the 2nd posting of same circumstances from xara? I've seen post closed for less due to someone asking for the forum to design electrical work. These are simple calcs for someone in the trade.

There is a first time for everyone for everything. Asking more experienced hands to comment may show wisdom or lack of self-confidence. I like to give folks the benefit of the doubt until proved otherwise.
 

xara

Member
Location
minneapolis, mn
What rule in the nec code book states that you can only use 80% of your breaker?
please list the number so I can look it up.
Rule 210.20 only states that you size the breaker at 125% of the continuous load plus the noncontinuous load. And I already did this in my calculation.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
What rule in the nec code book states that you can only use 80% of your breaker?
please list the number so I can look it up.
Rule 210.20 only states that you size the breaker at 125% of the continuous load plus the noncontinuous load. And I already did this in my calculation.


Members have said your calculations are basically correct. There are 2 ways to look at this. A continuous load on a 20 amp circuit cannot have a load more than 80% (16 amps) of the overcurrent protective device unless the breaker is rated 100%-- you won't find that with small breakers

The other method is to take 16 amps and multiply by 125% and you get 20 amps. So again 16 amps is the maximum load on a 20 amp breaker with a continuous load.

You only need to calculate it once and no one said you did it incorrectly
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
What rule in the nec code book states that you can only use 80% of your breaker?
please list the number so I can look it up.
Rule 210.20 only states that you size the breaker at 125% of the continuous load plus the noncontinuous load. And I already did this in my calculation.

Look up article 424.
 
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