I want to know the differences between NEMA and UL Standard.

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firsttimeym

Member
Location
china
I want to know the differences between NEMA and UL Standard. One of our project's
Client has specified that all electrical implement required to be BOTH to NEMA and UL Stanadards, these ontrol panel used in heavy industry, for UL stand ,i konow i should reference UL508A,but for nema stand what shoud i do?
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
I think that is vague specification.
Both have many unique specifications. You need to know what specifications your are to design and build for.

For example the enclosure or cabinet can be indoor , outdoor, rain tight , or wash down . NEMA 3r , 4x............
What NEMA standard are you building to , that is the question. A global requirement is basically useless.
Maybe you know the design environment.
Oh Welcome to the forum!:happyyes:
 

firsttimeym

Member
Location
china
I think that is vague specification.
Both have many unique specifications. You need to know what specifications your are to design and build for.

For example the enclosure or cabinet can be indoor , outdoor, rain tight , or wash down . NEMA 3r , 4x............
What NEMA standard are you building to , that is the question. A global requirement is basically useless.
Maybe you know the design environment.
Oh Welcome to the forum!:happyyes:

enclosure used indoor and nema type 1,what other i need to consider?choose nema type moter starter? or other?

and i did not know what NEMA standard i could reference and the seems no one konw,that is the question?

the customer only tell me the control panel need to meet NEMA and UL508A standard,so i am confused:?:?:?:?:?
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
I want to know the differences between NEMA and UL Standard. One of our project's
Client has specified that all electrical implement required to be BOTH to NEMA and UL Stanadards, these ontrol panel used in heavy industry, for UL stand ,i konow i should reference UL508A,but for nema stand what shoud i do?


If it were me, I wouldn't really worry about it. Build to the UL standard and use NEMA rated contactors, enclosures, etc.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
the customer only tell me the control panel need to meet NEMA and UL508A standard..

There is no single NEMA standard that is comparable to UL508A.
NEMA standards are used for the manufacturer's design of each component. UL508A deals with the overall assembly and interconnection of individual components.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I want to know the differences between NEMA and UL Standard. One of our project's
Client has specified that all electrical implement required to be BOTH to NEMA and UL Stanadards, these ontrol panel used in heavy industry, for UL stand ,i konow i should reference UL508A,but for nema stand what shoud i do?
I think it means build to UL508A and don't use any IEC components.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I have no idea what they are really asking for. it may be like many specs where a reference is made to all kinds of other specs. Sometimes the list is so vague as to just say "NEMA" or "UL".

I have seen specs where there is just a list of a dozen or more standards organizations and a boiler plate paragraph that more or less says the equipment has to meet the applicable requirements of every standard all of those organizations put out. Some of the standard organizations I have never even heard of and some standards have contradictory requirements.

We generally take one of two approaches.

The first is to ask them specify what specific requirements they actually have.

The second is to tell them in our proposal what we are proposing and make it clear that this may have some variance from their spec in some respects.

We mostly go with the second approach as it is simpler and most times the people putting out the RFQs are not in a position to respond to a request for more information.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
I have no idea what they are really asking for. it may be like many specs where a reference is made to all kinds of other specs. Sometimes the list is so vague as to just say "NEMA" or "UL".

I have seen specs where there is just a list of a dozen or more standards organizations and a boiler plate paragraph that more or less says the equipment has to meet the applicable requirements of every standard all of those organizations put out. Some of the standard organizations I have never even heard of and some standards have contradictory requirements.

We generally take one of two approaches.

The first is to ask them specify what specific requirements they actually have.

The second is to tell them in our proposal what we are proposing and make it clear that this may have some variance from their spec in some respects.

We mostly go with the second approach as it is simpler and most times the people putting out the RFQs are not in a position to respond to a request for more information.

Well put. It seems to me, form the way the OP wrote his question that they are in the "proceeding with work" stage. If so, the approach you list is no longer viable. So taking it a step further, if my assumption is right, then the OP could provide a panel drawing with components for approval, or provide just a list of material that he feels may be at issue for approval.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
NEMA is not a test standard, it is a set of design standards for the component mfrs., who can self-declare conformance. The old enclosure environmental standards, such as NEMA 1, 3R, 12, 4 etc, have all been adopted by UL under the UL50 standard, which then rolls up into UL508A. In some cases the UL versions were made a little more stringent because the original NENA standards didn't tequire third party testing, so if an enclosure is Listed under UL50, it meets or exceeds the NEMA standards anyway.

NEMA standards for contactors are vague enough that you can claim "NEMA ratings" on IEC contactors simply by sizing them per NEMA guidelines. So in essence, if you are building to UL508A standards and sizing contactors to NEMA rules you will meet any associated NEMA "standards". That may not however meet the INTENT of the spec writer, I would ask first. Traditional NEMA contactors were designed as heavy duty devices based on the worst possible operating conditions, so that users could apply them without much concern for the duty involved, and rebuild them several times during the life of the machine if necessary. IEC contactors are meant to be engineered into any application by looking at the specific operating conditions, duty cycle and expected lifespan with replacement, not repair. That difference is often important to people, but they mistakenly say "NEMA standard" not knowing that the actual NEMA standards can be interpreted very loosely because there is no third party authority involved. That's why I like to ask what they really want. If you accept a looser interpretation from a mfr, you run the risk of alienating your customer, who will chose not to use you again.
 

firsttimeym

Member
Location
china
If it were me, I wouldn't really worry about it. Build to the UL standard and use NEMA rated contactors, enclosures, etc.

but for the control circuit? ,for example :control relay /miniature circuit breaker or ......I mean if all parts has NEMA and IEC TYPE?

what is the difference between IEC general purpose control relay and NEMA general purpose control relay ???
 

firsttimeym

Member
Location
china
I think it means build to UL508A and don't use any IEC components.


but for the control circuit? ,for example :control relay /miniature circuit breaker or ......I mean if all parts has NEMA and IEC TYPE?

what is the difference between IEC general purpose control relay and NEMA general purpose control relay ???
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
but for the control circuit? ,for example :control relay /miniature circuit breaker or ......I mean if all parts has NEMA and IEC TYPE?

what is the difference between IEC general purpose control relay and NEMA general purpose control relay ???
Jraef explained it pretty well in post 9. NEMA contactors are often designed for many more operating cycles then similar rated IEC contactors. Off top of my head seems like NEMA contactors are usually rated for 1 million maybe even 2 million operating cycles, where IEC contactors are only like 500 thousand.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Along with the fact I have seen NEMA contactors close into a fault and survive perfectly while it seems IEC contactors just self destruct.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Want to bet interrupt ratings got overlooked or were not properly done on those applications?

Surly a possibility but when the IEC contactor is about 1/4 to 1/3 the physical size of the equivalent NEMA contactor I tend to doubt the interrupt rating is the only issue.

Don't get me wrong, I have chosen IEC over NEMA for some applications due to price and compact size but given the choice I would take NEMA.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Jraef explained it pretty well in post 9. NEMA contactors are often designed for many more operating cycles then similar rated IEC contactors. Off top of my head seems like NEMA contactors are usually rated for 1 million maybe even 2 million operating cycles, where IEC contactors are only like 500 thousand.
IEC contactors are typically going to say they are rated for 1 million electrical operations, but only under the specific conditions of use they are selected for. So in the IEC world, those conditions of use are divided into AC or DC, then in AC, there are 22 separate "Utilization Categories" with numbers assigned to them and bizarrely specific conditions. The most common one you see in the catalog will be AC-1, which is what we would call the "Thermal current" rating, meaning the amps you can use it at for non-inductive loads, like resistance heaters. Then there is AC-3 which is inductive loads like AC Squirrel Cage induction motors. Then within AC-3 there is a graph that you apply by determining how often you will turn it on and off, how long in between starts, what the power factor of the motor will be during starting, the ambient temperature in the enclosure, the phase of the moon and the angle of the dangle. That graph will then tell you how long you can expect it to last. If you want it to last longer, you can de-rate a contactor accordingly based on your operating onditions. But although they sell replacement contacts on larger sizes, that's only because people in North America insisted on it when they started selling them here. Elsewhere in the world they know that the contactors will have beaten themselves to death by the time the contacts wear out, they rarely ever replace contacts.

NEMA contactors are designed for a minimum of 10 million mechanical operations and 1 million electrical operations, meaning it is inherently designed to have the contacts replaced 10 times. Also, that rating is at full load Across-The-Line starting, and also must have a basic 50% derate for what we call "Inching and Plugging Duty" (the theoretical equivalent of AC-4 in IEC ratings). Inching means banging the contactor on for a second to creep a load forward, over and over and over, Plugging means to try to stop an AC motor and load by using a reversing contactor and putting the motor into reverse while it is going forward. When you do that, the PF of the motor rarely gets out of the .2 range, so the contactor will be switching on and off at 500-600% FLA. It just can't get worse than that. An AC-4 rated IEC contactor could do that too, but requires a minimum rest period between operations (differs by size). NEMA does not, you can do it as fast as your control system can make it happen.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Building on Jraef's information, NEMA devices are designed to be applied with minimal thought, while IEC devices are intended to be applied based on the characteristics of the load. Definite purpose devices require even more careful application considerations.

For example using a off the shelf 10HP 480V motor: NEMA Size 1 uses 27A continuous rated contacts. IEC selection tables for AC3 applications typically use 18A rated devices. A definite purpose contactor often is limited to an LRA of 5X.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
IEC contactors are typically going to say they are rated for 1 million electrical operations, but only under the specific conditions of use they are selected for. So in the IEC world, those conditions of use are divided into AC or DC, then in AC, there are 22 separate "Utilization Categories" with numbers assigned to them and bizarrely specific conditions. The most common one you see in the catalog will be AC-1, which is what we would call the "Thermal current" rating, meaning the amps you can use it at for non-inductive loads, like resistance heaters. Then there is AC-3 which is inductive loads like AC Squirrel Cage induction motors. Then within AC-3 there is a graph that you apply by determining how often you will turn it on and off, how long in between starts, what the power factor of the motor will be during starting, the ambient temperature in the enclosure, the phase of the moon and the angle of the dangle. That graph will then tell you how long you can expect it to last. If you want it to last longer, you can de-rate a contactor accordingly based on your operating onditions. But although they sell replacement contacts on larger sizes, that's only because people in North America insisted on it when they started selling them here. Elsewhere in the world they know that the contactors will have beaten themselves to death by the time the contacts wear out, they rarely ever replace contacts.

NEMA contactors are designed for a minimum of 10 million mechanical operations and 1 million electrical operations, meaning it is inherently designed to have the contacts replaced 10 times. Also, that rating is at full load Across-The-Line starting, and also must have a basic 50% derate for what we call "Inching and Plugging Duty" (the theoretical equivalent of AC-4 in IEC ratings). Inching means banging the contactor on for a second to creep a load forward, over and over and over, Plugging means to try to stop an AC motor and load by using a reversing contactor and putting the motor into reverse while it is going forward. When you do that, the PF of the motor rarely gets out of the .2 range, so the contactor will be switching on and off at 500-600% FLA. It just can't get worse than that. An AC-4 rated IEC contactor could do that too, but requires a minimum rest period between operations (differs by size). NEMA does not, you can do it as fast as your control system can make it happen.
Thanks for that info. Looks like NEMA contactors last much longer then I expected - but with a few changes of contacts during that time.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Thanks for that info. Looks like NEMA contactors last much longer then I expected - but with a few changes of contacts during that time.
We just had someone at a foundry searching for replacement contacts on a Size 3 starter made in the 1950's. The starter came new on an air compressor that has reportedly been in continuous use since it was installed. No word on how many times over the years the contacts have been replaced, but the guy said that in the 25+ years he has been there they have rebuilt the compressor more often than they have replaced the contacts. (We found them for him.)
 
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