Supply Side Tap

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bwise863

Member
Location
Sacramento area
I'm in a situation where we need to tap into the supply side power. The panel is an old Cutler Hammer 200 amp with the meter & landing on the left side and the branch circuits and main on the right. There are bars feeding the Main breaker not 2/0 copper wire. So using an insulated piercing connector isn't going to work.

Just before these bars get to the Main breaker they are bolted with two other bars. I think I can unscrew (power is off) the nuts and put a Burndy 1 hole connector under each of them and then put the nuts back on. Is that okay? Other issue I know of is having unfused wires in the same cabinet as fused wires. That would be the case here. From what I've seen on-line people are doing this anyways...is there a caveat in the NEC?

Please see attached picture of the panel.

Thanks,
Byron
 

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pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Just before these bars get to the Main breaker they are bolted with two other bars. I think I can unscrew (power is off) the nuts and put a Burndy 1 hole connector under each of them and then put the nuts back on. Is that okay?

Other issue I know of is having unfused wires in the same cabinet as fused wires. That would be the case here. From what I've seen on-line people are doing this anyways...is there a caveat in the NEC?

Adding the connector like that would remove the UL listing of the panel so that would be not be okay. Having the other conductors in the cabinet is not the problem but messing with listed assemblies is.

It's not possible to make a code compliant supply side connection in a meter main panel by connecting into or tapping that I have seen. There are a couple of systems that put a collar between the meter and the meter socket with a CB and connection point for a PV system that work well.

SDG&E uses these http://www.sdge.com/environment/renewable-meter-adapter
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
I concur with pv_noob. Unfortunately you can't really do this. Supply side taps generally require a separate meter base with field wiring to the main panel. One common work-around on meter/main combos is to downsize the main breaker. The only other work-around I know of is to get UL to come out and field list your installation, but this costs way more money than replacing 200A service equipment.

That 'RMA' is nice, wish PG&E would do that. Does anybody make that to be ordered without going through the utility?
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
It could take a bit of effort but there may be a buss tap that could replace one of the main breakers -- so many circumstances would have to be evaluated in order to have a single disconnect for a new sub panel which could separate the feeders again --
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Adding the connector like that would remove the UL listing of the panel so that would be not be okay.
Is it even listed to begin with?

Does the code require it be listed?

Does the code even apply to this piece of equipment?

In any case, you can't "remove the listing" via a modification. It is just a modification to an item (listed or not) and as such is up to the AHJ to approve or not approve. no different than cutting a hole in a box to install conduit fittings.
 
Is it even listed to begin with?

Does the code require it be listed?

Does the code even apply to this piece of equipment?

In any case, you can't "remove the listing" via a modification. It is just a modification to an item (listed or not) and as such is up to the AHJ to approve or not approve. no different than cutting a hole in a box to install conduit fittings.

I agree. I don't see this as an automatic no no. Most of the time when I have wanted to do this I get approval from the inspector first and most have said as long as I use a listed lug and don't drill holes in any thing then they are fine with it.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Is it even listed to begin with?

Does the code require it be listed?

Does the code even apply to this piece of equipment?

In any case, you can't "remove the listing" via a modification. It is just a modification to an item (listed or not) and as such is up to the AHJ to approve or not approve. no different than cutting a hole in a box to install conduit fittings.

The code does not require a panel be listed but just about all AHJs require the use of listed equipment. Chances are high that this is a listed panel.

If someone modifies a UL listed product in a way that the manufacturer does not support the listing is voided. It can be relisted by having a NRTL do a field evaluation. If the field evaluation passes then they put on a new UL listing sticker. This is an expensive option so is usually only used if it's more expensive to replace the equipment. I've had it done and it's a pain.

If you are cutting holes in listed equipment where the manufacturer does not say you can cut holes then you don't have listed equipment anymore.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
I agree. I don't see this as an automatic no no. Most of the time when I have wanted to do this I get approval from the inspector first and most have said as long as I use a listed lug and don't drill holes in any thing then they are fine with it.

Just because it's physically possible to put something in does not mean it's safe. What torque would you use putting the bolts back on in this panel? Most likely the manufacturer does not supply this information for those bolts since this is not a serviceable part, so you just tighten it down with an educated guess and hope for the best. But torque values are important to prevent high resistance connections from forming and causing a fire. This kind of git 'er done way of interconnecting will come back to bite the owner, and then you when someone traces it back to that connection.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
The code doesn't require panelboards to be listed? How do you know things like the ampacity of the busbars if it's not listed?

Regardless, every panelboard I've ever seen has been listed AFAIK, and it is a code violation to do something with it that's not in instructions or label.

I'd also say the situation is pretty different between 200A or less meter/main combos and larger switch gear.
 
Just because it's physically possible to put something in does not mean it's safe. What torque would you use putting the bolts back on in this panel? Most likely the manufacturer does not supply this information for those bolts since this is not a serviceable part, so you just tighten it down with an educated guess and hope for the best. But torque values are important to prevent high resistance connections from forming and causing a fire. This kind of git 'er done way of interconnecting will come back to bite the owner, and then you when someone traces it back to that connection.

I consider myself to be, and in my experience most inspectors consider me to be, able to use bolt technology. :roll: Seriously though, I do think you are being overly dramatic. Electricians, including myself, have been buying lugs for decades and bolting them onto stuff. We have also been drilling knockouts in equipment for decades as well.

Around here, class 320 sockets dont even come with lugs, you buy what you need and bolt them on.

Ilsco provides torque values and bolt/washer combinations for joining various materials:

http://solutions.atielectrical.com/...560-pdf/documentation/Torque-Index-Values.pdf
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
but just about all AHJs require the use of listed equipment.

My opinion is that is false.

Chances are high that this is a listed panel.

I agree.

If someone modifies a UL listed product in a way that the manufacturer does not support the listing is voided.

You cannot void a listing, you may make an item not comply with a listing but it is not voided.

It can be relisted by having a NRTL do a field evaluation. If the field evaluation passes then they put on a new UL listing sticker. This is an expensive option so is usually only used if it's more expensive to replace the equipment. I've had it done and it's a pain.

But you do not have to do that if the AHJ does not feel the modification has changed the product in a way that does not meet the listing any longer.

If you are cutting holes in listed equipment where the manufacturer does not say you can cut holes then you don't have listed equipment anymore.

False.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
Is it even listed to begin with?

Does the code require it be listed?

Does the code even apply to this piece of equipment?

In any case, you can't "remove the listing" via a modification. It is just a modification to an item (listed or not) and as such is up to the AHJ to approve or not approve. no different than cutting a hole in a box to install conduit fittings.


Yes, could depend on the POCO, & 90.1, 90.7, 110.3

230.66 Marking
Service equipment rated at 1000 volts or less shall be marked to identify it as being suitable for use as service equipment. All service equipment shall be listed. Individual meter socket enclosures shall not be considered service equipment.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Yes, could depend on the POCO, & 90.1, 90.7, 110.3

230.66 Marking
Service equipment rated at 1000 volts or less shall be marked to identify it as being suitable for use as service equipment. All service equipment shall be listed. Individual meter socket enclosures shall not be considered service equipment.

Identified does not mean listed.

Listing is one way of identifying something but not the required way.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
Identified does not mean listed.

Listing is one way of identifying something but not the required way.


230.66 Marking
Service equipment rated at 1000 volts or less shall be marked to identify it as being suitable for use as service equipment. All service equipment shall be listed. Individual meter socket enclosures shall not be considered service equipment.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
230.66 Marking
Service equipment rated at 1000 volts or less shall be marked to identify it as being suitable for use as service equipment. All service equipment shall be listed. Individual meter socket enclosures shall not be considered service equipment.

:thumbsup:
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
The code doesn't require panelboards to be listed? How do you know things like the ampacity of the busbars if it's not listed?

It's kind of strange for people working in PV since the NEC requires most of our equipment be listed. But look at the rest of the code and requirements for listed equipment are few. NEC 408 covers panelboards and does not require the use of listed equipment.

NEC 110.3 requires equipment to meet some basic requirements. AHJs are free to do the examination themselves where listed equipment is not required but most will require listed equipment so that they do not have to perform their own examination. That's where the requirement for listed panelboards comes from, the AHJs.

As for the specs for unlisted equipment the source is the same as for listed equipment, the manufacturer's data sheet.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
The service equipment requirement quoted above addresses my point about meter/main combos being listed. As for whether one can modify or add to busbars between meters and main breakers without violating 110.3(B), I'm gonna stick with my opinion that one cannot, unless the manufacturer explicitly approves it.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Recommended reading to catch up to current requirements for UL listing.


To Tap or Not to Tap
http://www.ul.com/global/documents/...newsletters/electricalconnections/april10.pdf

Here are some highlights:
Panelboards and deadfront switchboards are not Listed to have their busbars tapped unless there are existing holes in the busbars marked with the word “Tap” adjacent to the holes. Other holes in the busbar that are not marked with the word “Tap” are intended for the connection of overcurrent devices, other device’s as identified by the product markings and in the installation instructions or other uses identified by the manufacturer.​
When a UL Listed product is modified after it leaves the manufacturing facility, UL has no way to determine if it continues to comply with the applicable safety requirements used initially for its certification without a separate assessment of the modified product.

It is the responsibility of the code authority to first determine whether a modification is acceptable or significant enough to require one of UL’s Field Engineering Services staff members to evaluate the modified product. In determining if a field evaluation should be conducted, the code of Official needs to consider the extent and nature of the modification, and make sure the field evaluation can effectively evaluate the impact the modification has on the product’s ability to comply with safety requirements.

The UL Listing is confirmation that the equipment meets the listing standards when it left the factory. When someone modifies UL Listed equipment in a way that is not approved then UL says it is has no way to determine if it is still meets the Listing standard. That is a long winded way of saying the Listing is no longer valid.



FAQs for Code Authorities
http://www.ul.com/code-authorities/resources/faqs-for-code-authorities/

A UL Listed product was modified in the field. Does this void the Listing?

An authorized use of the UL Mark is the manufacturer’s declaration that the product was manufactured in accordance with all applicable requirements, and was in compliance with those requirements when it was shipped from the factory. When a UL Listed product is modified, retrofitted or altered in any way after it leaves the factory, it is not possible for UL to confirm that the product continues to meet the applicable certification safety requirements unless the field modifications are specifically investigated by UL. It is the responsibility of the Authority Having Jurisdiction to assess the acceptability of the modifications or to determine if the modifications are significant enough to require one of UL’s Field Engineering Services staff to evaluate the modified product. UL can assist the AHJ in making this determination.​


Once UL Listed equipment is modified and UL can no longer confirm that it meets the Listing standards it falls back on the AHJ to determine if the equipment is acceptable, just as if unlisted equipment were used in the first place. Once again this is a long winded way of saying, yes the UL listing is voided.

But in PV work much of the equipment we use has to be listed. If a DC combiner is modified outside of the Listing then it no longer meets the Listing standard and it is not in compliance with the NEC to use it, even if the AHJ approves the modification. The AHJ can approve of it's use as an alternative to the NEC requirement as is their prerogative.

AALZ Guide Info
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/...n=versionless&parent_id=1073983908&sequence=1

FIELD MODIFICATIONS​

The UL Mark applies to the product as it is originally manufactured when shipped from the factory. Authorized use of the UL Mark is the manufacturer's declaration that the product was originally manufactured in accordance with the applicable requirements. UL does not know what the effect of a modification may have on the safety of the product or the continued validity of the UL certification mark unless the field modifications have been specifically investigated by UL. Unless UL investigates a modified product, UL cannot indicate that the product continues to meet UL's safety requirements.​

The only exception for a field modification authorized by UL is when the product has specific replacement markings. For example, a switchboard may have specific grounding kits added in the field. The switchboard is marked with a list of specific kit numbers that have been investigated for use in that particular switchboard. Only grounding kits that are included on the product have been investigated for use in that product.


And as always, having done something since you were an electrician in diapers does not mean it is the correct way to do it, it means you have not been called out for it. There is no weaker argument for code interpretation than, "I've done it this way for the last 30 years and never had a problem." It could just mean that no one has caught you that cared to say anything.
 
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