2 circuits one 2 pole switch

[marc deschenes]

Is it code compliant to wire two individual branch ciircuits to a 2 pole switch?

I have wired two L. E. D. pool lights and when they are both connected the branch circuit they trip the G.F.C.I. They are 120 volt 50 watt fixtures.
The manufacturer wants me to wire two 1pole 20 amp G.F.C.I circuit breakers to a two pole switch is this acceptable ?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: 2 circuits one 2 pole switch

Marc,
In general, no. The following is from the UL Guide information for snap switches.

Multi-pole, general-use snap switches have not been investigated for more than single-circuit operation unless marked "2-circuit" or "3-circuit."

Don

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: 2 circuits one 2 pole switch

Thanks Don,
I sure wish this guy only had one of these &@$&!%& lights !!!
There is a Tech from Hayward coming out tomm. He will push for this as a solution I'm sure. There is no way in Hell I'll do it ,Unless they provide a listed switch . My guess is the electronic switching in these lights is what is causing the trip they are synchronized and have 12 different choices of display .

 

[physis]

Re: 2 circuits one 2 pole switch

Huh?

What am I missing?

I admit that I don't understand where UL gets it's authority from.

And I also admit that I didn't look very long at the link Don posted.

Is there an NEC code that agrees?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: 2 circuits one 2 pole switch

Yes, 110.3(B).
Don

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: 2 circuits one 2 pole switch

I have Talked to two other electricians both thought it unusual and they have never done it , they also thought handel ties would be required for the breakers ( a device on one yoke ). I think it is bull shirt that these lights do not function together even though they are wired according to N.E.C. and the instructions provided. I worry about liability when I hear this kind of solution being proposed , nothing in the instructions says these lights require an idividual branch circuit wired to a 2 pole switch?? , in fact it states quite the opposite . I don't know ,.... but it sounds like poor design at Hayward .

Have you ever wired 2 I.B.Cs two a 2 pole snap switch?

The other two electricians and myself represent almost 100 years of electrical work and we have never had the occasion to do such a thing anywhere , let alone for a combined load of 1 amp + or - submereged in a pool
Smells like fish , looks like fish , swims like fish, fries like fish,... it's fish !!!

 

[George Stolz]

Re: 2 circuits one 2 pole switch

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
Marc,
In general, no. The following is from the UL Guide information for snap switches.

Multi-pole, general-use snap switches have not been investigated for more than single-circuit operation unless marked "2-circuit" or "3-circuit."

Don

What about a multiwire branch circuit? If the light (which I am unfamiliar with) is powered from a MWBC, it wouldn't technically be two circuits.

If that helps Marc's situation, I have no idea.

Why not just wire them to an ice-cube general purpose relay, or to a lighting contactor?

This doesn't sound like a difficult problem to fix. If a GFI trips, current is getting from one light to the other. Are the neutrals joined after the GFI?

Not to disrespect your guys' 100 years, Marc, sometimes the easy answers are the ones that miss first glance.

 

[hurk27]

Re: 2 circuits one 2 pole switch

I have used a two-pole switch to switch on a light and exhaust blower in commercial bathrooms where you have one common exhaust blower for both bathrooms, one side of the two-pole switch in each bathroom would turn on the blower, the other side would only turn on the light in that bathroom. I never knew the switch wasn't listed for it?

I think it's a case of a common neutral? or grounded neutral.

Come to think of it it was all the same circuit.

[ August 16, 2005, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]

 

[physis]

Re: 2 circuits one 2 pole switch

After thinking about it some I guess it's all pretty reasonable that a multipole switch be listed for use with more than one circuit.

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: 2 circuits one 2 pole switch

A relay may work or may not work , the homeowner has paid for these lights to be wired once. He does not want to pay me to figure out Haywards problem , and I don't want to eat any more time either . I was only wondering if it was O.K. to run Two circuits to a two pole switch , because that is what they proposed would "solve the problem" , it seems as if it is not . I am reluctant to ,( seeing how these are pool lights ) , to just try things which may or may not "solve the problem" , which we don't even know what that problem is.

If I install these things outside the manufacturers instructions what will I hang my hat on if there is a real issue ? The first question I'll have to answer is "Did you install these lights according to the instructions provided " and I'll say" yes but they kept tripping the breaker so I did xyz".
How would that play out in court ? Are we not required to wire equipment according to the manufacturers instructions ?

 

[apauling]

Re: 2 circuits one 2 pole switch

i guess i am missing something here. i assume that the initial question was about two seperate circuits, ie., 2 seperate 20 amp overcurrent protected circuits. the discussion, however, seems to indicate that lighting cannot be run in seperate loops to a switch as that is multiple circuits, on one overcurrent protected circuit. I don't think that is what the UL listing is talking about.

paul

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: 2 circuits one 2 pole switch

The Haward tech came out today , a great guy and experienced as well . To make a very long story short , we ended up changing every thing at least twice some components three times . When they are wired together they still trip the breaker, separate they work fine .

The question about the switch came about because they had suggested running two individual branch circuits to a two pole switch.
These lights are synchronized to show the same display , there are 12 programs , to change programs you cycle the switch on, off ,on , off on , off . When I told them they worked fine individually they made the suggestion about the two pole switch .

I think they have realized that this would not be a reasonable solution .

I have talked to two more electricians and they also have never run to separate circuits to a two pole switch.
If it is allowed it is not commonly done that's for sure.

So after two guys spent an additional 8 hours trouble shooting and rewiring these God forsaken lights nothing changed.

Thanks for responding guys ,
if it is ever solved I'll let you know .

 

[benaround]

Re: 2 circuits one 2 pole switch

Marc,

The lights are synchronized to work together, yet they are on two switches.Are they also able to work 'unsynchronized'? I don't see how. My point is these fixtures "talk" to each other or multiplex over the power conductors in some way. Do you think if multiplexed that when both units are active,and I'm really guessing here,enough current is used to upset GFCI? Or maybe they should be 'daisy chained' so they are always on the same program. I for one would be interested in the final outcome.Good Luck

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: 2 circuits one 2 pole switch

They are not wired to two switches they are on one branch circuit with one single pole switch . It is because they work separately that the folks at Hayward suggested a two circuit two pole snap switch . I think , though not sure , that they are synchronized through the electronic switching integral to the fixture, by using the peek of the sine wave . I don't think there is any " talking " between them.

There has been a Twist in the road,
We installed a standard 1 pole breaker , protecting a dead face gfci device with the lights connected on the load side ,.... It does not trip.
Some people might say " great , problem solved ",... Not me ,I say why is it tripping three different gfci breakers and not tripping this device.
While I recognize it is O.K. to use such a device , I chose a breaker because it provides a higher level of protection for the homeowner.I also do not think the problem is solved, we do not know what it is or if it poses a threat. It seems to, when using a gfci breaker ?
I talked to an engineer at Siemens who confirmed that the use of a gfci breaker provides a higher level of protection for the homeowner, and added the lights should not trip the breaker. As for why they don't trip the one dead face gfci applied , he thought the device simply has a higher fault tolerance level.

If I had used a dead face from the start I would not have known better , would not have seen these lights trip three different breakers all day long, I cannot use the dead face and walk away.
While I know it is O.K. to use such a device , it is also O.K. to use a breaker and that is what I decided to use . To search for a device that holds ,
is to me , like putting a 30 amp fuse on a #14 because the 15 amp fuse keeps popping . Problem solved ???? Nope , just waiting to surface.

Thanks again Marc

 

[gudguyham]

Re: 2 circuits one 2 pole switch

Hi Gentlemen, I am not certain if this applies here, but just for the record, If you have 2 circuits (multiwire branch circuit) sharing a common neutral and you try to use a GFI breaker on both or either one of the hot legs(at the panel) the GFI will trip unless of course the current return on the neurtal is within 3ma's of each circuit, which would be nearly impossible. Perhaps somewhre along the line there is a return of some current on another neutral. When you bring a dead front GFI closer to the source of load there is less likelyhood that some current will be drawn off to to anohter neutral. On occasions I have seen neutrals tied together in a box that are derived by separate circuits. If this is done and a GFI (breaker) is on either circuit, it will trip. If all the lights are on one branch circuit with no shared neutral returns, the breaker should not trip. Be sure that your branch circuit you are using for the lights is not part of a branch circuit sharing a neutral. The fact that the dead front works leads me to believe there is something going on before the load side of the circuit involved. It will be interesting to see what the final solution to this is, but I see no problem with the dead front GFI. They are used all the time on whirlpool tubs in a bathroom situation. Good Luck

 

[gudguyham]

Re: 2 circuits one 2 pole switch

Hi Guys, this is not exactly the smae situation but something everyone might want to be aware of in a troubleshooting situation. On another topic here a guy was having a problem with a circuit breaker tripping in an old house when another breaker was turned on. He said he checked for shorts and everything and found nothing. Here is what happened to me once. Problem: HO claims that in bathroom when they turn on the bathroom fan from the door location the fan works fine. In the same housing is a heat lamp set up which has a switch closer to the tub area. When the fan is on everything is fine, turn on the heat lamp and PUFF..off goes the breaker. Turn on the heat lamp everything fine, turn on the fan PUFFF...off goes a different breaker.....HMMMM....Problem solved after some troubleshooting. Electrician that wired the bathroom ran switched power line from the door location to the fan, then a switched power line to the heatlamp fromm a different location in the room. The fan and the heat lamp where on different circuits, the whole thing worked fine for many years until one day. What happened was....The heatlamp has a overtemp safety device that IF the fixture overheats because the lamp was on too long the overtemp device shorts the circuit over to the fan leg to cool the fixture down. This is a one shot device that once shorted stays shorted. Because the fan and the light where on different phases when both switches were on it created a short between phases. Somebody wasent thinking when they wired that, seems harmless though but the safety device doing its job uncovered this problem. It always is great reading about problems and then getting the solution to them, especially in unobvious situations. Good Luck

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: 2 circuits one 2 pole switch

The folks at Hayward wanted me to run two individual branch circuits to a two pole snap switch , Not a multi wire .

The problem I have gudguyham is , more of an ethical / moral one. How do I say to the owner the G.F.C.I. breaker trips (all three we used) but this $10.00 device doesn't , so you are all set. You said it yourself these lights should not trip the breaker,.... period. I will not change my design to find a device that will tolerate the currant leaking from these fixtures . The tech from Hayward said there are thousands of these devices protecting receptacles all across the country and that may well be true , but I have never met anyone that blow dries their hair while taking a bath , these lights are in the tub with you. If this were my house and my kids I would not use this device Knowing that three different breakers tripped .
As for the installation it is fine and has been rewired twice total and some of it three times over, the problem is the Lights ,not the fact I chose to use a breaker.

The breakers are doing their job they are telling me there is a problem with the lights and I'm listening .

gudguyham ,Imagine the worst case , someone gets hurt , I can see myself explaining all the trouble shooting , how it was rewired and how the breakers tripped and tripped and tripped and tripped but that I managed to find a device that wouldn't .

Keep in mind I do not know why they are tripping or if the problem will get worse. To use a device , that in my opinion provides inferior protection ,knowing what I now know , is in my mind wrong .

 

[engy]

Re: 2 circuits one 2 pole switch

"I will not change my design to find a device that will tolerate the currant leaking from these fixtures."
Glad you care

Have you had a chance to measure any leakage current with a Digital Multimeter?
May help answer why they want one fixture per circuit...

 

[iwire]

Re: 2 circuits one 2 pole switch

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
The breakers are doing their job they are telling me there is a problem with the lights and I'm listening .

I can't tell you how much I agree with that statement.

So many times people blame the messenger (the breakers) when they should be listening to what the messenger is telling them.