Chief Head Electrical Inspector

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GG

Senior Member
Location
Ft.Worth, T.X.
I did a panel upgrade on a house 1 month ago and it has still not passed the final inspection. The old panel was in a closet so I installed a new outdoor panel on the opposite wall of the closet panel and through a nipple I re-fed the old circuits from the new panel. Well the inspector on his way to the closet to look at the old panel noticed that the hall bathroom did not have a GFCI receptacle, it had just a 3 prong recep. He gave the job a red tag and said everything else looked good, just put a GFCI in the bathroom and he said he would pass the job. Sounded like BS but I did it anyway figuring it would make the insp. feel happy. Now he failed it again saying that the GFCI needs to be grounded to the nearest cold water pipe. By the way other than the 1 GFCI I installed there is not 1 other GFCI in the entire house. So I went down to the city hall where I spoke to the #1 chief head honcho senior electrical inspector. I asked him why the GFCI needed to be grounded. He said so it will work. I said a GFCI doesnt need a ground to work and the NEC even tells us we can change a non grounded recep. with a GFCI. He then changed gears on me and said well it needs a ground so that the tester we use will test it properly. He is talking about those $5 testers with all the pretty lights that inspectors are issued their first day on the job. I told him those testers will not test a GFCI that does not have a ground and that a GFCI already has a built in tester. You push the test button, it trips the GFCI, you know its working. He said well I can show you 100's of cases where the GFCI trips and it still has power. So why is this guy being such an *** ? Is he just messing with me to try and prove some unknown point. I dont see how someone in his position can be so ignorant about something as simple as a GFCI receptacle not to mention his obvious lack of knowledge of the NEC. It boggles the mind. Im starting to wonder how this guy actually finds his way to work each morning.

[ February 07, 2006, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: GG ]
 

raider1

Senior Member
Staff member
Location
Logan, Utah
Re: Chief Head Electrical Inspector

Check out This article written for IAEI. I couldn't get the diagram to show, but the article is informative.

Chris
 

charlie tuna

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Re: Chief Head Electrical Inspector

gg,
ever heard the saying "win the battle" but at the same time "loose the war"? you may be correct, but it sounds like you are somewhat negative to the inspection department. your in an industry that requires inspections -- and remember -- it becomes a give and take game at times. eventually, you might need these same guys for a favor -- this inspection stuff can get real expensive. example: you move one fire smoke head in an office and it requires an inspection -- the tenant is late opening the office and the inspector shows up and the place is locked up -- now you can show him the smoke head through the glass door and also the junction box and it's support from the open ceiling in the corridor. he remembers your situation about going to the chief!! guess what, he say's "call it in today and i'll be back tommorrow"! now if you had a situation where there was 100 gfic receptacles -- it's different. just my $.02...............
 

jeff43222

Senior Member
Re: Chief Head Electrical Inspector

Originally posted by GG:
He then changed gears on me and said well it needs a ground so that the tester we use will test it properly.

I have yet to see anything in the code or in a local ordinance that requires that wiring be done in such a way that those testers will trip a GFCI. Have him show you the code/ordinance that requires this. Sure, I often use one of those testers myself, but I know the only official way to test a GFCI is to push the integral button on the receptacle.

He said well I can show you 100's of cases where the GFCI trips and it still has power..

Ask him how that has anything to do with whether his tester will trip it. If it trips and still has power, that would indicate that the device itself is faulty and needs to be replaced.

This inspector sounds like one of those "I am the AHJ" guys.
 

GG

Senior Member
Location
Ft.Worth, T.X.
Re: Chief Head Electrical Inspector

Well the inspector is scheduled to go look at the job tomorrow. I'm afraid that if he red tags this job for the 3rd time I'm going to wash my hands of the job. While this may not be fair to the customer I feel I have to draw the line somewhere. I thought I was being kind to appease the inspector with his ridiculous demand of wanting a GFCI installed in a bathroom when my permit was only for a panel upgrade. I'm not going to crawl under some ones house to run a wire to the CWG that in my opinion is going to serve no purpose. Two of the red tags were because the customer left their house on the days I had called in for an inspection. I told them to stay home from 9-12 and both times they left their house for what they deemed emergencies. So that right there cost me a $50.00 re-inspection fee that they refused to pay. So how would any of you handle a customer and inspector in this situation. I know if the insp. says to install that CWG the customer is not going to be willing to pay for it. This job has prompted me to draw up a new contract for customers to sign so this doesn't happen to me again.
 

jeff43222

Senior Member
Re: Chief Head Electrical Inspector

I'm wondering if installing the GFCI is required as part of a local ordinance. In one jurisdiction where I work, there is an ordinance that requires a whole bunch of things be done whenever a panel or service is upgraded. One of those things is GFCIs in the bathrooms, but I've never had an inspector require a separate EGC be run for an existing outlet.

As for the extra inspection fees, I don't see how it's your responsibility to pay for them when the customer was the one who didn't meet the inspector as arranged. Perhaps next time you could call the inspector and merely give him the customer's contact info. The leave it to the two of them to make the arrangements. Some inspectors I deal with want me to do it this way.

I had a customer blow off an inspector last week, but the customer was understandably frustrated that all the inspector would commit to for a time was "sometime Wednesday." She didn't think it was fair that she should have to wait around for a whole day for a five-minute inspection, and unless the inspector can at least commit to a window of "morning" or "afternoon," she'd prefer to skip the whole thing.

My obligation as the EC is to pull the permit before work starts and notify the inspector when the work is ready for inspection. But if the customer is uncooperative, there's not much I can do about it.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Chief Head Electrical Inspector

Originally posted by GG:
He said well I can show you 100's of cases where the GFCI trips and it still has power.
Sure. You accidentally swap line and load, the receptacle will have power when tripped. It's irrelevant.

I dont see how someone in his position can be so ignorant about something as simple as a GFCI receptacle not to mention his obvious lack of knowledge of the NEC.
GG, take a deep breath. You are right as rain, and you know it. Take the head dude the link Chris posted.

As of this moment in time, 70% of my career elapsed before I learned how a GFI worked. If we never inquire, never get curious, never ask, we'd never learn. It's not so unbelieveable that someone would not know how a GFI works.

For many, all they learn is all we're taught. If all they're taught is where to put GFI and why to put it there, and a means to test it for success, then how it works can be ignored if the person is unmoved to care.

We're here 'cause we get off on learning, arguing, whatever. Not everyone is like that. :(
 

69boss302

Senior Member
Re: Chief Head Electrical Inspector

Originally posted by georgestolz:

As of this moment in time, 70% of my career elapsed before I learned how a GFI worked.
Sorry George, can't resist, 70% and you being a 3rd year house monkey, that means it took you around 2 years :D
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Chief Head Electrical Inspector

That's true: but I learned it here. If I hadn't come here, who knows how long it would have been before I learned it?
 

JohnE

Senior Member
Location
Milford, MA
Re: Chief Head Electrical Inspector

FWIW you might want to inform the inspections department that the manufacturers advise against using anything but the test button for testing GFCI's. I got this info from Joe Ross, a longtime member of an NEC CMP as well as the Massachusetts CMP. I don't have documentation on this, but could probably obtain it from Joe.
 

JohnE

Senior Member
Location
Milford, MA
Re: Chief Head Electrical Inspector

Also, while I sometimes follow the "lose the battle, win the war" mantra, following an inspectors request to do something not required just aids them in propagating their personal requirements. The more that EC's confront these inspectors, the more likely for the practice to cease.
 

GG

Senior Member
Location
Ft.Worth, T.X.
Re: Chief Head Electrical Inspector

Goerge, I took a deep breath and I feel better now. Sometimes I make a big deal out of little things. Stars, you bet I put that little "No EGC" sticker on the cover. I put it right at the top of the cover plate. I went back today before the inspector got there and installed a spot light on the bathroom ceiling and aimed it directly at that little sticker so that the insp. couldn't miss it. I also set out some milk and cookies. Maybe this job will finally pass and the HO will climb off my behind. :^)
 

Matt Harp

Member
Re: Chief Head Electrical Inspector

Isn't it a code violation to run a EGC from the gfci to the cold water pipe? I have heard it both ways.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Chief Head Electrical Inspector

Matt Harp, see 250.130(C).

The connection to the cold water pipe has to be within 5' of the entrance to the building per 250.52(A)(1).
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
Re: Chief Head Electrical Inspector

Testing the GFCI with a $5 tester is a NEC violation , as the GFCI mfg states to test the GFCI with its push button. As you pointed out the $5 testers don't always work.
Show him 110.3(B), after your inspection passes.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Re: Chief Head Electrical Inspector

The connection to the cold water pipe has to be within 5' of the entrance to the building per 250.52(A)(1).
Dang, George. That's an interesting point. I've never been a real fan of the "ground the receptacle to the water pipe" but never thought of your point, which is indeed valid. I would bet, however, when 250-130(c) was written that wasn't the intent. Interesting!
 

sandsnow

Senior Member
Re: Chief Head Electrical Inspector

It's probably not a tester anyway. I'm sure it's just an "indicator" :cool:

Is this guy really the head electrical inspector or just the head inspector.

Scary in any case. :eek:

One word of advice. Do your best to leave emotion out of your discussions.
 
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