used breakers for new construction?

[charlie tuna]

i recently came on a job where the original electrical contractor installed circuit breakers bought from a breaker broker??? how i found out about it was one of the three pole 600 amp breakers was actually a two pole breaker! i had contacted the manufacturer about some other needed breakers and from the main switchgear drawing number they told me that it was manufactured with only one breaker ordered???? now - after the fact - he has got to come up with a three pole 600 amp breaker and is crying the blues!!!! i don't do business like that!!

 

[hbiss]

Re: used breakers for new construction?

Not the first time I have heard of someone reusing old breakers in a new installation and charging the customer same as new. I guess the temptation to not get rid of the stuff you pull out is just too great. Problem is you have no idea what the condition of something that seemingly looks good is in. At least a "breaker broker" is supposed to test and guarantee.

 

[brian john]

Re: used breakers for new construction?

hbiss:

Do not assume anything regarding used CB's, as stated previously I/we test all used circuit breakers we buy, and have had to return quite a few.

I was at a project couple hundred miles north of Washington DC to do a PQ study as part of my work I try and find out how old a facility is. At this particular facility I was told the building was two years old. I then told the electrician for the original contractor (the contractor kept two electricians on site for on going service work) that GE had not used these particular panels for year. . I was told "You're here to find problems not to critique the equipment, find the problem and keep your mouth shut." I was not working for this contractor, so I did my job and related the story to the contractor that had hired me, he told me it might be best if I followed the advice of the on site electrician.

 

[hbiss]

Re: used breakers for new construction?

Brian, I wasn't implying that used breakers, regardless of source, should be re-used.

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: used breakers for new construction?

this 1600 amp - 480 volt switchboard is in a nema-3r enclosure manufactured by cutler hammer. i have never seen a two pole breaker in a three phase configuration???? we don't see many cutler hammer products and this is a 600 amp breaker. does the third phase have overcurrent protection - we thought maybe it's used for the neutral or ground on maybe a dc system???

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: used breakers for new construction?

Two pole breakers can be used on 3 phase corner grounded delta systems. Is there any chance that you have one of these systems?
Don

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: used breakers for new construction?

maybe this breaker came from one of those systems?
the breaker designation catalog number indicates that is two pole - it has three connections to the bus system as a normal three pole breaker and it closes and conducts voltage the same as a three phase breaker???????? but according to the factory it is a two pole breaker????????

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: used breakers for new construction?

Charlie,
Does that mean that one pole is a switch only with no trip unit?
Don

 

[brian john]

Re: used breakers for new construction?

hbiss:

I was refering to breakers from CB brokers regardless their statement of testing the CB's. Short of a firm that truly remanufactures CB's I would question all used breakers.

[ November 12, 2003, 06:25 AM: Message edited by: brian john ]

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: used breakers for new construction?

this is a frame size 600 amp breaker - the name plate is something like "lc-2600-la" not sure of the letters but the normal breaker would be "lc3600-la" where the three would designate the number of poles. the first number above "lc-2600-la" indicates a two pole 600 amp breaker -i called my supplier and he ran the numbers through the manufacturer's rep and they confirm that it is indeed a two pole breaker - they also confirm that the switchgear was originally provided with none of these "added" breakers. now i am assuming that these breakers (two) were purchased from a breaker broker? could this breaker broker convert this three pole breaker (lc-2600-lc) to a 600 amp three pole breaker? the contractor tested this breaker and it reads all three phases when "on". or maybe the third leg of the lc-2600-lc has no overcurrent protection????

 

[gwz2]

Re: used breakers for new construction?

Almost all prints and/or Spec's I/ve looked at, had a note(s) or statement(s) such as :

New Equipment Only.

Existing raceways may be used.

gwz2

 

[brian john]

Re: used breakers for new construction?

GW: And most prints say all work will be installed to NEC standards and do ALL contractors follow that item in the notes?

 

[gwz2]

Re: used breakers for new construction?

I do not know anyone who knows all aspects of the NEC.

I also believe that every installation will have violations, but that is not a reason say "everyone else does the installation(s) this way, why can't I ?"


That is a problem with every one. I am a party to ' everyone '.

Ultimately, the installer is the one responsible for an installation that will meet the CODE.

gwz2

 

[phil c]

Re: used breakers for new construction?

charlie tuna

I beleive you have delta breakers installed in your panelboard therefore is in voilation of sec.480-16(e)nec.

phil c.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: used breakers for new construction?

Phil,
A "delta" breaker does not have 3 connections to the panel bus.
Don

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: used breakers for new construction?

the business owner has solved the problem - after a discussion with the electrical contractor he contacted his lawyer and he sent the contractor a letter stating the money payed for the installation was not "used" or "abused" and they expect the used circuit breakers replaced with new! we connected the new press to the first new breaker they had aired in and the second 600 amp breaker is back ordered. this installation is a free standing cultler hammer 1600 amp switchgear rated at 480 volts. i was shocked at the construction of this equipment. are switchgear standards reduced since we cannot work on energized equipment. the flash cover is made of sectional pieces that are held in place by only two 1/4-20 machine screws that do not go thru the cover but only pinch two opposing corners. the energized bus is about four or five inches behind these panels. be careful guys!!!!

 

[hurk27]

Re: used breakers for new construction?

By:charlie tuna i have never seen a two pole breaker in a three phase configuration????

Square D makes a 3-pole breaker that you can get with only two-poles. the breaker is used in some gainable meter packs and some switch gear it's the QEVH series. but they are very hard to get as they only manufacture them once a year and they dont keep many in stock. so sometimes the wate can be as long as 6 months. the other thing is there directly swappable with ether 100 amp or 200 amp so to upgrade a service one just needs to change the panel, feeders and breakers.

[ November 20, 2003, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: used breakers for new construction?

well this is what we had - a breaker with three poles - the catilog number indicated it was two poles - 600 amp 250 vdc / 600 vac. when closed it conducted all three phases thru the breaker? the catilog number was confirmed from the factory to be a two pole breaker. the story gets better!!!

originally the owner hires a gc to build a large expansion to his printing plant. the gc's brother turns out to be the electrical contractor. the owner intends in the near future to purchase a new press (over a million dollar press) so has a 480 volt -1600 amp separate service incorporated within this expansion. his original building's service is 120/208 volts and is a pain converting the voltage for his existing presses. the plans call for a 350 amp breaker to feed normal loads in the new expansion area, and two 600 amp breakers for future equipment and one sub feed to terminate in the center of the pressroom. the electrical contractor orders the switchgear with only the 350 amp breaker. the building has been completed for about ten months. the owner now orders the press and hires us to wire it. we look at his new service and figure we need to get some type of distribution panel in the pressroom and it should be large enough to handle two press's.
this press is requiring about 400 amps, so we come up with an 800 amp (square d ) distribution panel fed by an 800 amp cutler hammer (cultler hammer was selected by the expansion contractor). the owner realizes he's looking at about $11.000 in gear an goes back and look at his plan. he asks me to stop by and give him my opinion. clear as can be are these two 600 amp breakers and one 600 amp subfeed into the pressroom. i suggested he call his engineer and confirm his contractor's responsibility. he tried to talk his way out but then said he would provide the breakers but not the sub feed (ceiling is 33 feet high and the sub feed is about two hundred feet long). about a week later they came by and installed two breakers. one was the two pole and the other was a 600 amp three pole. both were used by appearance. about this time i recieve the 800 amp breaker and the owner asks me to return it since he's bound and determined to force this contractor to provide two new 600 amp breakers! i find out the restock cost for this 800 amp breaker is 30 per cent!!!! or about $1800.00 . now he gets his attorney involved and the contractor comes and installs the sub feed and says the new breakers are on order???? but he doesn't know when the factory can provide them??? the press is now being assembled and we are running feeds to the press. i called the supply house and asked them to hold the 800 amp breaker for a week- they say "ok". now we are within a day of needing power to the new press for testing. the attorney tell the owner to do what ever he has to to keep the press on schedule and they will sue the expansion contractor for the costs! he tells me to get the 800 amp breaker and hardware kit. same day they deliver the 800 amp breaker, the contractor shows up with one of the 600 amp breakers. we connect our sub feed to his 600 amp breaker and return the 800 amp breaker. i've billed out the owner for our work along with the restock fee which he knows he is responsible for. now i get a letter from the cutler hammer supplier who has the returned 800 amp breaker and explains he now wants an 80 per cent restock fee!

whats your take on this??????????????

 

[Guest]

Re: used breakers for new construction?

Too many cooks spoil the soup

 

[hurk27]

Re: used breakers for new construction?

If this 800 amp breaker wasn't installed I can not see an 80% restock fee and may be covered by state laws that would prevent them from charging that amount. but if you were instructed to order the breaker then the persons who told you to order it are reasonable to pay the restock fee and any change orders that you might have encountered. Sounds like some very bad communication problems with suppliers, and or GC's

[ November 23, 2003, 01:45 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]