survey: bonding hot and cold water
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bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water
Im not an inspector nor from California, sorry.
Im not an inspector nor from California, sorry.
Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water
When the cold water is bonded, the hot water is also thru every mixing manifold in the building.
Look under sinks and behind tubs and showers.
The water heater tank itself provides this connection between the two.
In a commercial building this common bonding happens litteraly hundreds and maybe thousands of times on racks and supports.
Roger
When the cold water is bonded, the hot water is also thru every mixing manifold in the building.
Look under sinks and behind tubs and showers.
The water heater tank itself provides this connection between the two.
In a commercial building this common bonding happens litteraly hundreds and maybe thousands of times on racks and supports.
Roger
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water
I can say I have never seen the hot and cold bonded together at the water heater.
I can say I have never seen the hot and cold bonded together at the water heater.
curt swartz
Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
- Location
- San Jose, CA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water
Roger, would you mind coming out here to Northern California and explaining this to the inspectors?
I do work in about 20 different jurisdictions and most of them require a bonding jumper at the water heater connecting the cold water, hot water and gas piping. I have finally gotten tired of fighting them on this and just install the jumper. The City of San Jose only wants to see the cold water bonded.
Roger, would you mind coming out here to Northern California and explaining this to the inspectors?
I do work in about 20 different jurisdictions and most of them require a bonding jumper at the water heater connecting the cold water, hot water and gas piping. I have finally gotten tired of fighting them on this and just install the jumper. The City of San Jose only wants to see the cold water bonded.
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water
I agree that in many cases the bonding of the cold and hot water pipes is done at mixing valves and other conductive paths, but I don't know if the code considers thos to be effective and continuous.
I can not be sure the bond made by other installations is going to be permanent, of adequate capacity, or have the lowest possible impedance to fault current.
A properly sized and connected bonding jumper most certainly will.
I agree that in many cases the bonding of the cold and hot water pipes is done at mixing valves and other conductive paths, but I don't know if the code considers thos to be effective and continuous.
I can not be sure the bond made by other installations is going to be permanent, of adequate capacity, or have the lowest possible impedance to fault current.
A properly sized and connected bonding jumper most certainly will.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water
As long as you can see there is no insulating material involved it meets the code.
There is little difference between a soldered pipe coupling and a soldered mixing valve.
As long as you can see there is no insulating material involved it meets the code.
There is little difference between a soldered pipe coupling and a soldered mixing valve.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water
I think everything is pretty well bonded in a standard plumbing setup. However there does seem to be more plastic coming into the systems all the time. I usually don't bond hot and cold. One inspector had me do it a while back. The guy also had me tape the gec green, ALONG THE ENTIRE LENGTH! :roll: Obviously I was young and naive at the time. He'd have an awful hard time convincing me to do that now.
I think everything is pretty well bonded in a standard plumbing setup. However there does seem to be more plastic coming into the systems all the time. I usually don't bond hot and cold. One inspector had me do it a while back. The guy also had me tape the gec green, ALONG THE ENTIRE LENGTH! :roll: Obviously I was young and naive at the time. He'd have an awful hard time convincing me to do that now.
caosesvida
Senior Member
Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water
copper hasn't been used here for over 20 years, all piping is plastic. I did get a ground fault then the plumber touched the water softener one time. The carpenter drove a 20 penny nail through the steps into a 10/2 to the water heater, through the r-max foil when the plumber touched the softener ( while touching the r-max foil) he got shocked. Did the process of elimination with the breakers and traced the wire.
copper hasn't been used here for over 20 years, all piping is plastic. I did get a ground fault then the plumber touched the water softener one time. The carpenter drove a 20 penny nail through the steps into a 10/2 to the water heater, through the r-max foil when the plumber touched the softener ( while touching the r-max foil) he got shocked. Did the process of elimination with the breakers and traced the wire.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water
Roger,
Don
Roger,
Many of the mixing manifolds are now nonmetallic and even if they are metallic they are often connected to the metal water piping system using a nonmetallic flex connector.
Many water heaters have a dielectric fitting to isolate the tank from the water piping system.
Don
Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water
Don, agreed.
If we know there is complete isolation of the piping systems, then certainly there would need to be a connection.
I don't see these plastic units in my projects.
If an inspector can see a metalic plumbing installation, there would be no need for anything further than a single connection.
In these "plastic" installations, wouldn't it require bonding at each mixing valve (if they have metalic handles) as well as the water heater, or do we have to bond anything at all?
250.104 is only for piping.
Would metal handles on a concrete slab on grade shower be a concern?
Roger
Don, agreed.
If we know there is complete isolation of the piping systems, then certainly there would need to be a connection.
I don't see these plastic units in my projects.
If an inspector can see a metalic plumbing installation, there would be no need for anything further than a single connection.
In these "plastic" installations, wouldn't it require bonding at each mixing valve (if they have metalic handles) as well as the water heater, or do we have to bond anything at all?
250.104 is only for piping.
Would metal handles on a concrete slab on grade shower be a concern?
Roger
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water
Roger,
If just the mixing body and valve assemblies are metallic I see no reason to bond them. It is not likely that these items could become energized.
Don
Roger,
If just the mixing body and valve assemblies are metallic I see no reason to bond them. It is not likely that these items could become energized.
Don
Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water
Don, then if the whole house is plumbed with plastic piping, there would be no reason to bond the nipples at the water heater either.
This would already be done with the EGC to the unit.
Roger
[ April 29, 2004, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: roger ]
Don, then if the whole house is plumbed with plastic piping, there would be no reason to bond the nipples at the water heater either.
This would already be done with the EGC to the unit.
Roger
[ April 29, 2004, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: roger ]
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water
Roger,
I agree with that too.
Don
Roger,
I agree with that too.
Don
Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water
Originally posted by roger:
Eprice, using that reasoning we would have to provide a jumper around every copper coupling that was soldered.
You stated earlier that if we know there is a complete isolation of the piping system there would need to be a connection. I'd rather say, if we don't know for sure that there isn't an isolation we need to make an intentional bond.
I guess it's another area of the code that is open to differing interpretations. In my neck of the woods bonding hot to cold just seems to be the accepted practice.
lance111364
New member
Re: survey: bonding hot and cold water
I have done several service upgrades in Colorado,Kansas, and Missouri. We where required to bond the hot and cold at the heater on all residential- multi family dwellings with copper or steel water systems. It is one of the main concerns of the inspectors I have delt with.
I have done several service upgrades in Colorado,Kansas, and Missouri. We where required to bond the hot and cold at the heater on all residential- multi family dwellings with copper or steel water systems. It is one of the main concerns of the inspectors I have delt with.
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