Sub panel in closet
- Thread starter D.Rater
- Start date
- Status
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Sub panel in closet
If it's a broom or utility closet with enough working space you can locate the sub-panel there. However, if it's a clothes or linen closet you cannot locate the panel there as these items are considered ignitable or combustible materials.
If it's a broom or utility closet with enough working space you can locate the sub-panel there. However, if it's a clothes or linen closet you cannot locate the panel there as these items are considered ignitable or combustible materials.
throttlebody
Senior Member
- Location
- Martinsburg, WV
Re: Sub panel in closet
230.70(A)1,2,3
Service Disconnecting means shall not be installed in bathrooms.
A "SubPanel" is not a Service Equipment Disconnecting means.
404.1 Scope.
The provisions of this article shall apply to all switches, switching devices, and circuit breakers where used as switches.
404.4 Wet Locations.
A switch or circuit breaker in a wet location or outside of a building shall be enclosed in a weatherproof enclosure or cabinet that shall comply with 312.2(A) Switches shall not be installed within wet locations in tub or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly.
312.2(A) would not apply.
However, 110.26(B) Clear Spaces.
Working space required by this section shall not be used for storage.
Also, The depth and Width are to follow 110.26(A)1,2,3 With the exception of 110.26(E) exception.
In exsisting dwelling units, service equipment or panelboards that do not exceed 200 amperes shall be permitted in spaces where the headroom is less than 6'6".
The differences between codes and opinions are irrelevant. While this is code, my opinion may differ. I once met a man working the the plumbing trade, who owned a very old house ,whose panelboard was in the tub/shower space. I came to work everyday waiting to hear that he was electrocuted.
230.70(A)1,2,3
Service Disconnecting means shall not be installed in bathrooms.
A "SubPanel" is not a Service Equipment Disconnecting means.
404.1 Scope.
The provisions of this article shall apply to all switches, switching devices, and circuit breakers where used as switches.
404.4 Wet Locations.
A switch or circuit breaker in a wet location or outside of a building shall be enclosed in a weatherproof enclosure or cabinet that shall comply with 312.2(A) Switches shall not be installed within wet locations in tub or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly.
312.2(A) would not apply.
However, 110.26(B) Clear Spaces.
Working space required by this section shall not be used for storage.
Also, The depth and Width are to follow 110.26(A)1,2,3 With the exception of 110.26(E) exception.
In exsisting dwelling units, service equipment or panelboards that do not exceed 200 amperes shall be permitted in spaces where the headroom is less than 6'6".
The differences between codes and opinions are irrelevant. While this is code, my opinion may differ. I once met a man working the the plumbing trade, who owned a very old house ,whose panelboard was in the tub/shower space. I came to work everyday waiting to hear that he was electrocuted.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: Sub panel in closet
In the closet in the dining room, is not in the dining room.
russ
Senior Member
- Location
- Burbank IL
Re: Sub panel in closet
240.24(D) and (E) Overcurrent devices are not permitted in clothes closets or bathrooms.
240.24(D) and (E) Overcurrent devices are not permitted in clothes closets or bathrooms.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Sub panel in closet
I don't wash my hands, etc., in the closet.
D.Rater, does the job have a set of official drawings? If so, is the closet so labeled? Show that to the inspector.
I don't wash my hands, etc., in the closet.
D.Rater, does the job have a set of official drawings? If so, is the closet so labeled? Show that to the inspector.
JohnE
Senior Member
- Location
- Milford, MA
Re: Sub panel in closet
This question is along the lines of is a bedroom closet in the bedroom. It's been argued somewhere on this site. I'd say panel in a closet in a bathroom is still a panel in a bathroom, but I know many others will disagree.
This question is along the lines of is a bedroom closet in the bedroom. It's been argued somewhere on this site. I'd say panel in a closet in a bathroom is still a panel in a bathroom, but I know many others will disagree.
throttlebody
Senior Member
- Location
- Martinsburg, WV
Re: Sub panel in closet
overcurrent devices, other than supplementary overcurrent protection, shall not be located in bathrooms.
The branch circuit begins in the main panel. The "SubPanel" OCPDs become supplementary.
[ February 15, 2006, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: throttlebody ]
240.24(E)
overcurrent devices, other than supplementary overcurrent protection, shall not be located in bathrooms.
The branch circuit begins in the main panel. The "SubPanel" OCPDs become supplementary.
[ February 15, 2006, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: throttlebody ]
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Sub panel in closet
Edited to add: The only exception would be for the doors in the "Winchester House."
[ February 16, 2006, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
I am one. I submit that every door separates the room on one side from the room on the other side.
Edited to add: The only exception would be for the doors in the "Winchester House."
[ February 16, 2006, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Sub panel in closet
Consider a house that did have its main panel in a "full bathroom" (i.e., includes a shower). Suppose during one particularly long shower, enough moisture got into the panel to cause a short circuit. If the short occurs on the load side of any given breaker, there is a chance that the breaker will trip. A nuisance, perhaps, but not likely a serious danger. But if the short occurs upstream of the breakers, then there might be nothing to prevent an explosion or a fire. I think that is why the code forbids overcurrent protection devices in a bathroom: to prevent a failure upstream of the OCP.
Now change the scenario. The panel is not in the bathroom. A branch circuit (with its OCP in the panel) feeds an intercom (or smoke detector, or other low current device) in the bathroom. Let's say that internal to that device is a 1 amp fuse. Now suppose the steam from a long shower causes a short circuit within the device. The device's own fuse might not open, particularly if the short is upstream of the fuse, but the OCP in the panel should be able to terminate the event. I think this is what is meant by having "supplementary overcurrent protection": when the branch circuit has an OCP at the panel and a second OCP within a device fed by the branch circuit.
I have often wondered what was meant by that statement, but I don't agree with your suggested meaning.
Consider a house that did have its main panel in a "full bathroom" (i.e., includes a shower). Suppose during one particularly long shower, enough moisture got into the panel to cause a short circuit. If the short occurs on the load side of any given breaker, there is a chance that the breaker will trip. A nuisance, perhaps, but not likely a serious danger. But if the short occurs upstream of the breakers, then there might be nothing to prevent an explosion or a fire. I think that is why the code forbids overcurrent protection devices in a bathroom: to prevent a failure upstream of the OCP.
Now change the scenario. The panel is not in the bathroom. A branch circuit (with its OCP in the panel) feeds an intercom (or smoke detector, or other low current device) in the bathroom. Let's say that internal to that device is a 1 amp fuse. Now suppose the steam from a long shower causes a short circuit within the device. The device's own fuse might not open, particularly if the short is upstream of the fuse, but the OCP in the panel should be able to terminate the event. I think this is what is meant by having "supplementary overcurrent protection": when the branch circuit has an OCP at the panel and a second OCP within a device fed by the branch circuit.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Sub panel in closet
"The branch circuit begins in the main panel. The "SubPanel" OCPDs become supplementary."
Is this a statement or a question?
If it is a statement, it is not correct. If a set of conductors is supplying a subpanel, the conductors are feeders. This does not qualify the overcurrent devices in that subpanel as "supplementary" overcurrent devices.
Read the definitions of feeder and branch circuit in Art 100.
"The branch circuit begins in the main panel. The "SubPanel" OCPDs become supplementary."
Is this a statement or a question?
If it is a statement, it is not correct. If a set of conductors is supplying a subpanel, the conductors are feeders. This does not qualify the overcurrent devices in that subpanel as "supplementary" overcurrent devices.
Read the definitions of feeder and branch circuit in Art 100.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Sub panel in closet
And while you're at it, read the definition of "supplementary overcurrent protection." I did not realize that it was defined in Article 100. Having read it, I see that I had the right concept.
throttlebody
Senior Member
- Location
- Martinsburg, WV
Re: Sub panel in closet
It wasn't a statement. Notice my last sentence. I was having fun with it to see how many would try to figure it out. Charlie, however, comes into the room, guns blazing and nails it on the first reply.
It wasn't a statement. Notice my last sentence. I was having fun with it to see how many would try to figure it out. Charlie, however, comes into the room, guns blazing and nails it on the first reply.
throttlebody
Senior Member
- Location
- Martinsburg, WV
Re: Sub panel in closet
BTW, we should welcome the definition to the 2005 NEC Article 100. It not only is added to 100, but also has been reworded with the word "required"and referencing of 210 has been deleted.
BTW, we should welcome the definition to the 2005 NEC Article 100. It not only is added to 100, but also has been reworded with the word "required"and referencing of 210 has been deleted.
Closet type
Closet type
I need to drill down on the kind of things that can be stored in a closet where I am considering putting a subpanel. This is a walk-in closet that contains books, games, vacuum cleaners and the usual assortment of boxes & junk, all on shelves.
The proper clearances can be arranged.
Is this a location that is considered to contain flammable materials like linens and clothes, or can I put a subpanel in there?
Second question (this _is_ twofer day, right. NEC specified that certain conditions & clearances must be "maintained." What does that work out to actually mean to the contractor and the home owner or resident?
Obviously the contractor has the responsibility for establishing clearances & conditions at the time of installation. Doe the contractor need to explain the C&C requirements to the resident or homeowner? Does the resident or homeowner then have the responsibility of maintaining the C&Cs?
Last question: Does hanging a picture or mirror or whatever over the subpanel to hide it consitute a violation?
Many thanks - I just found this forum & it looks like a wealth of knowledge.
Closet type
I need to drill down on the kind of things that can be stored in a closet where I am considering putting a subpanel. This is a walk-in closet that contains books, games, vacuum cleaners and the usual assortment of boxes & junk, all on shelves.
The proper clearances can be arranged.
Is this a location that is considered to contain flammable materials like linens and clothes, or can I put a subpanel in there?
Second question (this _is_ twofer day, right
. NEC specified that certain conditions & clearances must be "maintained." What does that work out to actually mean to the contractor and the home owner or resident? Obviously the contractor has the responsibility for establishing clearances & conditions at the time of installation. Doe the contractor need to explain the C&C requirements to the resident or homeowner? Does the resident or homeowner then have the responsibility of maintaining the C&Cs?
Last question: Does hanging a picture or mirror or whatever over the subpanel to hide it consitute a violation?
Many thanks - I just found this forum & it looks like a wealth of knowledge
.bassphisher
Member
This is something that I came across ,I think it may apply.What do ya think?
Wednesday, March 8, 2006
Question:
Subject: RE: NECA-NEIS Code Question of the Day ?Feb 07, 2006 Charlie, There is no provision to install a washing machine in a bathroom or closet accessed from the bathroom without providing GFCI protection for the receptacle(s). In the 1999 ROP, page 100, proposal 2-57 was to add an exception that would allow dedicated receptacle(s) for the laundry in a bathroom. The exception would be similar to that allowed in garages or unfinished basements. The submitter provided substantiation of many laundry facilities installed in bathrooms. The CMP response was to reject and in so doing they provided the following statement.. "The Panel intends to require GFCI protection for the 120-volt ac laundry appliances installed in bathroom areas. It is not in the interest of safety to permit these large appliances to not be protected by GFCIs in an area where individuals are, in many cases wet. The present code does not prohibit the installation of a washer in a bathroom, but GFCI protection must be provided. A proper functioning washer will operate on a GFCI protected circuit. If the washer trips the GFCI, then potentially lethal leakage current exists in the washer itself." I believe their answer was appropriate and correct. It should be noted that the Panel's rejection was unanimous. Joe Hertel
Answer:
Great comment, Joe. Nice reference right to the source for the answer. The Panel's action was clear and to the point. I tried to separate the laundry area from the bathroom but that is not permitted as shown by the panel statement. Kent's answer was indeed correct.
Section: 210.8(A)(1)
Source: Charlie Trolut
Paul
Electrical Inspector
Wednesday, March 8, 2006
Question:
Subject: RE: NECA-NEIS Code Question of the Day ?Feb 07, 2006 Charlie, There is no provision to install a washing machine in a bathroom or closet accessed from the bathroom without providing GFCI protection for the receptacle(s). In the 1999 ROP, page 100, proposal 2-57 was to add an exception that would allow dedicated receptacle(s) for the laundry in a bathroom. The exception would be similar to that allowed in garages or unfinished basements. The submitter provided substantiation of many laundry facilities installed in bathrooms. The CMP response was to reject and in so doing they provided the following statement.. "The Panel intends to require GFCI protection for the 120-volt ac laundry appliances installed in bathroom areas. It is not in the interest of safety to permit these large appliances to not be protected by GFCIs in an area where individuals are, in many cases wet. The present code does not prohibit the installation of a washer in a bathroom, but GFCI protection must be provided. A proper functioning washer will operate on a GFCI protected circuit. If the washer trips the GFCI, then potentially lethal leakage current exists in the washer itself." I believe their answer was appropriate and correct. It should be noted that the Panel's rejection was unanimous. Joe Hertel
Answer:
Great comment, Joe. Nice reference right to the source for the answer. The Panel's action was clear and to the point. I tried to separate the laundry area from the bathroom but that is not permitted as shown by the panel statement. Kent's answer was indeed correct.
Section: 210.8(A)(1)
Source: Charlie Trolut
Paul
Electrical Inspector
onder
New member
- Location
- north east us
sub panel location
sub panel location
Off the thread a bit: old house, has subpanel
at top of basement stairs. This is a fuse type
may have been the original panel years ago
as the current sep is a 200 amp GE .
Can the fuse sub panel be replaced
by a contemporary breaker type panel
wired as a sub from the sep
that same location?
sub panel location
Off the thread a bit: old house, has subpanel
at top of basement stairs. This is a fuse type
may have been the original panel years ago
as the current sep is a 200 amp GE .
Can the fuse sub panel be replaced
by a contemporary breaker type panel
wired as a sub from the sep
that same location?
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: Sub panel in closet
Not to be rude but there was really nothing to figure out. It is just plain wrong.
This is actually the literal wording and logic that an inspector tried to convince me of a few weeks ago.
There is (now was) a panel in a bathroom. I showed him the panel and told him I was replacing it so I would move it out of the bathroom as overcurrent devices are not allowed there. He tell's me since it is a sub panel these are supplementary ocp devices and they can be there. I tried to explain to him that these are branch circuit ocp devices and they are not allowed there. He then says well that was taken out of the code this cycle so breakers can now be in a bathroom and "I'll bet my life on it".
throttlebody said:It wasn't a statement. Notice my last sentence. I was having fun with it to see how many would try to figure it out. Charlie, however, comes into the room, guns blazing and nails it on the first reply.
Not to be rude but there was really nothing to figure out. It is just plain wrong.
This is actually the literal wording and logic that an inspector tried to convince me of a few weeks ago.
There is (now was) a panel in a bathroom. I showed him the panel and told him I was replacing it so I would move it out of the bathroom as overcurrent devices are not allowed there. He tell's me since it is a sub panel these are supplementary ocp devices and they can be there. I tried to explain to him that these are branch circuit ocp devices and they are not allowed there. He then says well that was taken out of the code this cycle so breakers can now be in a bathroom and "I'll bet my life on it".
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