help with 70e question with PPE

[ednj]

Hello everyone I am hoping that someone can help me with my current problem.
I been working as an medical air compressor tech for 8 years and just this week at a product training from the OEM they talked about use PPE for cat2 compressor control panels. My current company (about 10 employees) just issued us safety glasses and ear plugs. I am sure my boss will buy the rest for me that is not the problem. The problem is working with the full PPE on.

The control panel I work on are located in Hospital and it controls the medical air compressors. Main power to the panels are usually 460v.
I understand I must wear the cat2 PPE with the face shield, and double golves once I open the panel.

Here comes the problem.
Because it is a life support equipment (air compressors) I can't just turn the main feed to all the compressors off to work on them. (ie change out ice cube relays or test the motor overload. All medical air compressors come with at least 2 motors/pumps. I can shut one side off and work on that side while putting the other motor into full power so it can still supply the hospital with air.

Because I still have 460v on one side of the panel and the other side is "off" it is still inside of the same control panel. Some of the computer control wires and relays are small 18ga or 20ga wires and there is no way for me to test or replace broken parts with the full PPE gloves on. (these control wires are 120v)

I was told by the OEM trainer that I can be fined and the company I work for be fined if I did not follow the 70e, maybe by OSHA???
I asked the trainer why did they (all medical air companies uses 1 control panel) make it only one panel knowing that I can't work on it with full PPE on? He said he understand my problem but their design team would have to produce a new product line where each motor gets its own control panel and he does not think that will happen any time soon. I think he just said we have to use PPE in class to cover his own behind.

So what do i do here? not wear the PPE as maybe get hit with a fine? or wear the PPE and just stand there because i have lost the use of my finger with small tools?
thanks very much.

 

[weressl]

Hello everyone I am hoping that someone can help me with my current problem.
I been working as an medical air compressor tech for 8 years and just this week at a product training from the OEM they talked about use PPE for cat2 compressor control panels. My current company (about 10 employees) just issued us safety glasses and ear plugs. I am sure my boss will buy the rest for me that is not the problem. The problem is working with the full PPE on.

The control panel I work on are located in Hospital and it controls the medical air compressors. Main power to the panels are usually 460v.
I understand I must wear the cat2 PPE with the face shield, and double golves once I open the panel.

Here comes the problem.
Because it is a life support equipment (air compressors) I can't just turn the main feed to all the compressors off to work on them. (ie change out ice cube relays or test the motor overload. All medical air compressors come with at least 2 motors/pumps. I can shut one side off and work on that side while putting the other motor into full power so it can still supply the hospital with air.

Because I still have 460v on one side of the panel and the other side is "off" it is still inside of the same control panel. Some of the computer control wires and relays are small 18ga or 20ga wires and there is no way for me to test or replace broken parts with the full PPE gloves on. (these control wires are 120v)

I was told by the OEM trainer that I can be fined and the company I work for be fined if I did not follow the 70e, maybe by OSHA???
I asked the trainer why did they (all medical air companies uses 1 control panel) make it only one panel knowing that I can't work on it with full PPE on? He said he understand my problem but their design team would have to produce a new product line where each motor gets its own control panel and he does not think that will happen any time soon. I think he just said we have to use PPE in class to cover his own behind.

So what do i do here? not wear the PPE as maybe get hit with a fine? or wear the PPE and just stand there because i have lost the use of my finger with small tools?
thanks very much.

Unless you are a qualified worker to work on live electrical components you should not be working on such. You offered no data as what arc flash energy available at the exposure - it will be different based on the power system where the equipment is installed - therefore it can not be determined what type of PPE is required or if appropriate level of PPE is even available for that energy level.
Wearing the appropriate level PPE is not optional and the increased likeliness of an arc flash incident due to loss of dexterity is known and acknowledged. Worker safety overrides all other needs and it is also recognized that working on live equipment is now HIGHLY discouraged and to be restricted to occasions where it is absolutely necessary and never to be performed without the wearing of the appropriate PPE. It is not your problem, lazy management just tries to make it yours. Let them figure it out. (In my opinion we have painted ourselves into a corner and there is no way out in the foreseeable future.)

Before these rules were put in place there was no economic analysis was performed to the nationwide economic impact, that would have been required if it is written into law. There are literally millions of equipment out there that became unserviceable and people keep building machinery that will not be serviceable and even startup of such machinery performed by violating the NFPA70E. Should it be lawfully and fully enforced today, the economic damage would far surpass the current economic crisis, would instantly stop wast segments of industrial activity within the US and cause gradual but assured collapse of the economy. It is the white elephant in the middle of the living room that we choose to ignore.

 

[petersonra]

Before these rules were put in place there was no economic analysis was performed to the nationwide economic impact, that would have been required if it is written into law. There are literally millions of equipment out there that became unserviceable and people keep building machinery that will not be serviceable and even startup of such machinery performed by violating the NFPA70E. Should it be lawfully and fully enforced today, the economic damage would far surpass the current economic crisis, would instantly stop wast segments of industrial activity within the US and cause gradual but assured collapse of the economy. It is the white elephant in the middle of the living room that we choose to ignore.

I wonder what is going to happen with this whole situation. It is just about impossible to fix in any way that is economical. And even if it was "fixable", the ongoing cost would be unsustainable. I think there are things that can be done to reduce the risks. I can't see us shutting down the economy, but that does appear to be the only way to meet the requirements of this law.

The sad part is that no one can even tell you if what is being done to comply is even going to work.

 

[pfalcon]

This isn't CYA. Working in those panels without PPE has been banned for at least 5 years. The equipment manufacturer isn't going to change until forced to change because of the expense. By a new set and specify that it must be OSHA & 70E compliant.

 

[texie]

This is an interesting topic. The current rules are simply not practical but on the other hand the "old school" way of working things live is not acceptable. It seems a big part is culture and ignorance. It is way to common that many seasoned electricians have no concept of arc flash, incident energy, etc. Most seem to think the biggest risk is electrocution. I think many don't see the difference in hazard between a typical residential system with inherantly limited energy VS and large commercial/industrial setting. I'll bet too many don't even know what fault current is. Another issue is the supplier market place. I'll bet you can go into any branch of any of the well known suppliers and ask about PPE stuff and you will get a blank stare. You will be lucky if they have a pair of 1000 volt gloves and protectors. I'm sure they will tell you there is no demand to warrant stocking items and as a bussiness person I understand that. Not sure what the solutions are but it seems we have the very usafe practices and the overly safe practices and not much in between.

 

[Volta]

...Here comes the problem.
Because it is a life support equipment (air compressors) I can't just turn the main feed to all the compressors off to work on them. (ie change out ice cube relays or test the motor overload. All medical air compressors come with at least 2 motors/pumps. I can shut one side off and work on that side while putting the other motor into full power so it can still supply the hospital with air.

Because I still have 460v on one side of the panel and the other side is "off" it is still inside of the same control panel. Some of the computer control wires and relays are small 18ga or 20ga wires and there is no way for me to test or replace broken parts with the full PPE gloves on. (these control wires are 120v)

The answer is pretty simple, but the implementation isn't.

You can turn the compressors off. The hospital staff just has to coordinate to move patients to a different ICU / OR / PACU etc.

Then, the hospital needs to add a redundant system to make future maintenance less troublesome.

Because when something goes wrong while you are working live, aside from your health, if we are talking about HRC 2, there can easily be severe damage to the compressor equipment and they will be down for many hours. The unplanned outage is much worse than a scheduled one.

And your facility could face OSHA fines for you doing unnecessary work on energized equipment too, even with the correct PPE.

There is no easy way out these days, but give it a century or so, and I bet we will have much safer daily work practices and equipment.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[copper chopper]

dear ednj, maybe you could talk the facility and others into puting a hookup outside so you can temporarily feed there system so you can shutdown the main one to work on it safley..you could build a unit on a trailer to pull up next to the building with to do this.. We do it with generators all the time same concept...

 

[weressl]

I wonder what is going to happen with this whole situation. It is just about impossible to fix in any way that is economical. And even if it was "fixable", the ongoing cost would be unsustainable. I think there are things that can be done to reduce the risks. I can't see us shutting down the economy, but that does appear to be the only way to meet the requirements of this law.

The sad part is that no one can even tell you if what is being done to comply is even going to work.

That's what happen when one provides a political solution to an engineering problem.

 

[tish53]

We try and get safer every day by raising awareness of the arc flash hazards (over and over and over again) and providing the PPE everyone needs. Do I believe everyone always wears their PPE every time they should? absolutely not. but I do believe our people are making more informed and better ( safer choices) each day. If i think back to 5 years ago and the risks that were being taken with no thought at all, it was very scary.

 

[petersonra]

I was at a plant today that had an arc flash study done.

All they did was put generic labels saying arc flash hazard on all the control panels.

The panel boards all have arc flash labels with the actual hazard level on them. All of them appear to be level 0.

 

[ednj]

Thanks everyone for their feed back. I am sure to request the correct PPE.

Since the work I do is on hospital equipment they can't shut down any life support equipment. (medical air is one of them)
As part of the PM we measure the AMP on each leg of the motor and check the voltage. This has to be done live with the panel open and the motor running.
If order to shut the system off the hospital has to put air tank by each bed that cost alone makes them not want to shut down any system, and the main reason why all the pumps have to be duplex (nfpa 99)so they can work on one pump. I just dont understand why they follow nfpa 99 and forget about nfpa 70 on repairs. Here is one company's product I work on. This is one of the biggest medical air system producers.
http://www.beaconmedaes.com/index.php?option=com_air&view=scroll&Itemid=117


Only thing I can do is wear the PPE and if I need to work on the smaller wire and computer boards let my boss know that I can't remove them because the gloves get in the way and let him deal with it.

But in the long run I can see our company no longer getting that contracts as I am sure if my boss calls the hospital request for a shut down he will be turned down and the hospital will find another company who is willing to work without wearing double gloves. So in the end I may lose my job because we lost the business.

I just do not understand why company put out products that knowing that repairs can't be done.

 

[TVH]

Help with 70e question with PPE

Help with 70e question with PPE

Do a risk assessment identifying each step of the work. Review each step and identify precautions to prevent arc flash. have your supervisor and manager sign the risk assessment. If an arc flash is possible they further precautions must be taken. Think about safety not compliance to 70e.

 

[pistolpigg]

It seems to me that the one thing that the arc flash hazzrd analysis doesn't take in effect is the probability of an arc while performing certain tasks. For example would the wearing of arc flash double gloves and suit possibility of causing an accident compared to the possibility of a major arc covering performing a task like changing small ice cube relay. Seems like its akin to making everyone driving a car on the interstate on a dangerous patch of road wear a suit of some kind to minimize injury in case of an accident that may occur.

 

[GeorgeB]

As part of the PM we measure the AMP on each leg of the motor and check the voltage. This has to be done live with the panel open and the motor running.

I do similar work on less important systems, but with "sorta" the same need. My customer runs his "T-Leads" in flip cover duct which allows me to measure current. Can you access the wiring externally.

Is there a practical way to add "potential transformers" if you need monitoring, or just panel meters? One meter and switches are possible.

Only thing I can do is wear the PPE and if I need to work on the smaller wire and computer boards let my boss know that I can't remove them because the gloves get in the way and let him deal with it.

But in the long run I can see our company no longer getting that contracts as I am sure if my boss calls the hospital request for a shut down he will be turned down and the hospital will find another company who is willing to work without wearing double gloves. So in the end I may lose my job because we lost the business.

I suspect that the hospital will want to find a legal way to have the work done. Have your boss involve them in the problem.

I just do not understand why company put out products that knowing that repairs can't be done.

I'd bet they didn't know the recent requirements which came after the systms were designed ... what we did 10 years ago is different from what we MAY do today legally. And ... we were (to some level) less safe before. Where is the line drawn?

I won't make this political, but regulations do have costs.

 

[petersonra]

It seems to me that if there is some benefit to making the V/A readings on the motor (a dubious proposition IMO), the next time you do it, you might as well modify things to make it easier to take the readings next time. As someone suggested it may be fairly easy to route the wires somewhere that a current reading can be taken without exposing the electrician to live voltages. Voltmeters could be added as well so as to simplify the experience the next time around.

On a more humourous note about this, a plant I used to do some work in one time used to have regular volt and amp readings as part of its computerized PM. It would come up on their list of things to get done this week so the electrican would mosey on over and dutifully take the readings.

Beings as most of the motors were on things with varying loads, I gather eventually someone decided it served no real purpose and discontinued the practice. Especially after someone did some number crunching and found that over half of the readings were exactly zero. Not real surprising given that many of the motors run intermittantly and many were piped in spares, and nothing in the PM checklist told the electrician that they should only take the readings if the motor was running under normal load. To answer the obvious questions that will no doubt be asked, yes, it was a union plant, and yes, they often did this on OT on weekends when the plant was not running.

 

[weressl]

It seems to me that the one thing that the arc flash hazzrd analysis doesn't take in effect is the probability of an arc while performing certain tasks. For example would the wearing of arc flash double gloves and suit possibility of causing an accident compared to the possibility of a major arc covering performing a task like changing small ice cube relay. Seems like its akin to making everyone driving a car on the interstate on a dangerous patch of road wear a suit of some kind to minimize injury in case of an accident that may occur.

Avoiding a legal quagmire at all cost. What you're saying is that each arc flash probablity would need to be evaluated based on the vailable energy AND the specific task to be performed.

So who will take the legal burden of making a subjective, personal evaluation without exact parameters and applicable calculation formulas to decide what protective equipment needs to be worn and to expose themselves to be legally responsible for that decision?

A Company will not and can not ask an individual employee to accept taht responsibility, because they have the obligation to defend that employee against personal, legal action. They can't possibly create and evaluate ALL scenarios to provide a written guideline, nor there is the scientific data available to create it.

One of the big variable is the performance and skill of the individual performing the work. The potential for an employee to get hurt is so high, in addition the employee's (mis)action may be a contributing factor to initiate the failure, that the employer simply can't risk the exposure.

 

[wtucker]

...there is no way for me to test or replace broken parts with the full PPE gloves on.

Are the gloves the right size for you? Rated for the appropriate voltage (Class 00, in this case)?

 

[ednj]

Are the gloves the right size for you? Rated for the appropriate voltage (Class 00, in this case)?

I was told by the OEM trainer that we need to wear class 2. which is double gloves for 460V.

The reading of AMP and volts are just the example of the PM.
It does not change the fact that once a system fault I will need to pull computer boards out of the panel to check. These computer boards are about 3"x3" in size. Each board has CAT5 cable, power cable, and signal cable all are small 18ga wires which needs to be losen with small flat head screw driver.

and that is not even going to touch the Variable-frequency drive system inside of some panels.

These medical air system not brand new design, with color touch screen controls. So it is not like they were build 10years ago.

I am very greatful for the info people have posted and I have forward this info to my boss.

 

[wtucker]

Class 2 gloves are rated for 17,000vac maximum use. They're lineman's gloves! No wonder you have no dexterity.

 

[weressl]

I was told by the OEM trainer that we need to wear class 2. which is double gloves for 460V.

The reading of AMP and volts are just the example of the PM.
It does not change the fact that once a system fault I will need to pull computer boards out of the panel to check. These computer boards are about 3"x3" in size. Each board has CAT5 cable, power cable, and signal cable all are small 18ga wires which needs to be losen with small flat head screw driver.

and that is not even going to touch the Variable-frequency drive system inside of some panels.

These medical air system not brand new design, with color touch screen controls. So it is not like they were build 10years ago.

I am very greatful for the info people have posted and I have forward this info to my boss.

It is quite the routine that the PPE is worn until the absence of voltage is verified and then proceed with the work you describe without the PPE, and don it again for testing/trying out the accomplished repair-work under energized conditions. Of course it adds a lot of time to suit-remove-suit up again, but following the 70E requirements is not an option. ...and if that's not enough: do you have a standby person while you're working on energized stuff? The one to summon/administer first aid, remove you from the power if you're struck/stuck?