sec210.11(C)(3) Bathroom branch circuits
- Thread starter hank1
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peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: sec210.11(C)(3) Bathroom branch circuits
I haven't seen the '05 yet so I'm not sure about that.
Read 210.11 (C)(3) Exception ('02 code). You can put other loads on the 20 amp circuit as long as the circuit supplies a single bathroom. It is perfectly acceptable.
I haven't seen the '05 yet so I'm not sure about that.
Read 210.11 (C)(3) Exception ('02 code). You can put other loads on the 20 amp circuit as long as the circuit supplies a single bathroom. It is perfectly acceptable.
Re: sec210.11(C)(3) Bathroom branch circuits
What threw me off was 210.23(A) exception, the small appliance and bathroom branch circuits required in a dwelling unit(s) by 210.11(C)(1), and (C)2, and (C)(3)shall supply only the RECEPTACLE outlets specified in that section.
I was told I was overanalyzing.
Thanks Hank
What threw me off was 210.23(A) exception, the small appliance and bathroom branch circuits required in a dwelling unit(s) by 210.11(C)(1), and (C)2, and (C)(3)shall supply only the RECEPTACLE outlets specified in that section.
I was told I was overanalyzing.
Thanks Hank
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: sec210.11(C)(3) Bathroom branch circuits
The 2005 version of 210.11(C)(3) changed the phrase, ?20-amp branch circuit shall be provided to supply THE bathroom outlet(s)? by dropping the word ?the,? as I have shown in bold caps. I infer that the intent was to avoid confusion. By saying ?THE bathroom outlet(s),? it appears to mean a single bathroom. By changing it to say just ?bathroom outlet(s),? it appears to mean one or more bathrooms. It is a minor editorial change.
There is a similarly minor editorial change in the Exception. Instead of referring the reader to 210.23(A), it now refers the reader to 210.23(A)(1) and 210.23(A)(2).
The 2005 version of 210.11(C)(3) changed the phrase, ?20-amp branch circuit shall be provided to supply THE bathroom outlet(s)? by dropping the word ?the,? as I have shown in bold caps. I infer that the intent was to avoid confusion. By saying ?THE bathroom outlet(s),? it appears to mean a single bathroom. By changing it to say just ?bathroom outlet(s),? it appears to mean one or more bathrooms. It is a minor editorial change.
There is a similarly minor editorial change in the Exception. Instead of referring the reader to 210.23(A), it now refers the reader to 210.23(A)(1) and 210.23(A)(2).
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: sec210.11(C)(3) Bathroom branch circuits
That part has not changed. It is just as confusing as ever.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: sec210.11(C)(3) Bathroom branch circuits
Sam: I was saying that the loop was not changed. I'm still confused by it.
Sam: I was saying that the loop was not changed. I'm still confused by it.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: sec210.11(C)(3) Bathroom branch circuits
Me too
Me too
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: sec210.11(C)(3) Bathroom branch circuits
Originally posted by hurk27:
Me too
What you posted made sense and then the code just went around in a circle. :roll:
Bob
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: sec210.11(C)(3) Bathroom branch circuits
I'm sorry Bob I wasn't trying to cornfuse anyone else.
But I just didn't wan't to be the only one.
I'm sorry Bob I wasn't trying to cornfuse anyone else.
But I just didn't wan't to be the only one.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: sec210.11(C)(3) Bathroom branch circuits
Add me to the list of confused people. :roll:
Although I think the intent is pretty clear, the language is not.
Add me to the list of confused people. :roll:
Although I think the intent is pretty clear, the language is not.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: sec210.11(C)(3) Bathroom branch circuits
NEC 2005 210.11(C)(3) "...at least one 20 ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply bathroom RECEPTACLE outlet(s). Such circuits shall have no other outlets.
Ex. Where the 20 amp branch circuit supplies a single bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance..."
Receptacle outlets, key word there. I believe that more than "the" changed, because I'm pretty sure there was a mention of "one bathroom in a house" in the exception from NEC-2002. Unfortunately, I loaned off my 2002 to a friend, so I can't say that part with conviction.
Head spinning done? Who wants to do bath fans and Vanities in 12 wire anywho?
NEC 2005 210.11(C)(3) "...at least one 20 ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply bathroom RECEPTACLE outlet(s). Such circuits shall have no other outlets.
Ex. Where the 20 amp branch circuit supplies a single bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance..."
Receptacle outlets, key word there. I believe that more than "the" changed, because I'm pretty sure there was a mention of "one bathroom in a house" in the exception from NEC-2002. Unfortunately, I loaned off my 2002 to a friend, so I can't say that part with conviction.
Head spinning done? Who wants to do bath fans and Vanities in 12 wire anywho?
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: sec210.11(C)(3) Bathroom branch circuits
I think here is the problem to this: 210.11 requires a 20 amp branch circuit to supply the bathroom receptacle outlet(s). This is the primary intent.Which does not stop us from supplying all the bathroom receptacles in every bathroom in the dwelling. But if we only supply one bathroom then
210.11 Exception allows us to "other outlets" within this same bathroom. As we know the word "outlet" is defined in article 100 as
Which goes back to sounding like it is limiting this circuit to only receptacle outlets.
this very same exception that we quote when we state that the micro-Mate over the range can not be on the SA circuit isn't it? so how can the same exception have two different meanings?
If we apply the meaning that we use with SA circuits, then this exception is saying that the bathroom circuit can not supply other cord and plug connected equipment that is fasten in place. Example would be Hydromassage bathtubs, a heated towel rack, a insta-heat under the sink water heater, Etc... But this would also imply that it would not be allowed to supply lighting ether? As the SA circuits or laundry circuit is not allowed to supply?
The 2005 change does nothing to clear this up as all it did is maybe clear up that this circuit is allowed to supply more than one bathroom but the exceptions change to refer to 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2) only bolsters the "no lighting" thinking as nether one of these two articles have nothing to do with lighting as they are only for cord and plug connected equipment????
Maybe we can all band together and come up with a proposal to change this for 2008? like the removal of this stupid exception in 210.23(A) because the articles for the other required circuits already have the requirements for which outlets are allowed to be supplied by these circuits. Or could be changed to say so.
[ December 04, 2004, 01:45 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
I think here is the problem to this: 210.11 requires a 20 amp branch circuit to supply the bathroom receptacle outlet(s). This is the primary intent.Which does not stop us from supplying all the bathroom receptacles in every bathroom in the dwelling. But if we only supply one bathroom then
210.11 Exception allows us to "other outlets" within this same bathroom. As we know the word "outlet" is defined in article 100 as
So this would allow all "outlets" to be supplied by this 20 amp bathroom circuit. But then the exception refers us to do this in accordance with 210.23(A) which say's
Which seems to allow the light's to also be supplied from this circuit but then we read the exception:
(I always thought exceptions were permissible)
Which goes back to sounding like it is limiting this circuit to only receptacle outlets.
this very same exception that we quote when we state that the micro-Mate over the range can not be on the SA circuit isn't it? so how can the same exception have two different meanings?
If we apply the meaning that we use with SA circuits, then this exception is saying that the bathroom circuit can not supply other cord and plug connected equipment that is fasten in place. Example would be Hydromassage bathtubs, a heated towel rack, a insta-heat under the sink water heater, Etc... But this would also imply that it would not be allowed to supply lighting ether? As the SA circuits or laundry circuit is not allowed to supply?
The 2005 change does nothing to clear this up as all it did is maybe clear up that this circuit is allowed to supply more than one bathroom but the exceptions change to refer to 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2) only bolsters the "no lighting" thinking as nether one of these two articles have nothing to do with lighting as they are only for cord and plug connected equipment????
Maybe we can all band together and come up with a proposal to change this for 2008? like the removal of this stupid exception in 210.23(A) because the articles for the other required circuits already have the requirements for which outlets are allowed to be supplied by these circuits. Or could be changed to say so.
[ December 04, 2004, 01:45 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: sec210.11(C)(3) Bathroom branch circuits
If your bath fan and light pulls more than 50% of the available current, NEC-2005 210.23(A)(2), I'll eat my hat. So you're within tolerances there.
The microwave is fixed in place, or at least predetermined to be over the range so is as fixed as it'll get without screwing it down. Therefore, if your microwave pulls more than 50% (risky), then you're walking on thin ice.
These two concepts mesh in my mind. The Microwave is big, no good for the 50% rule on the SA. Notice the wording of 210.52 (B)(1). It specifically mentions all "wall and floor", "countertop" and "refrigeration(w/exception)" receptacle outlets. What other types do we have in the kitchen? Inside cabinet outlets for semi-fixed or fixed appliances. Those appliances need to find their own power; small ones can tag along on other circuits, big ones are demanding their own, based on the 50% rule.
The Bath Fan w/Vanity is small, acceptable to 210.23 and 210.11.
Does that make sense?
If your bath fan and light pulls more than 50% of the available current, NEC-2005 210.23(A)(2), I'll eat my hat. So you're within tolerances there.
The microwave is fixed in place, or at least predetermined to be over the range so is as fixed as it'll get without screwing it down. Therefore, if your microwave pulls more than 50% (risky), then you're walking on thin ice.
These two concepts mesh in my mind. The Microwave is big, no good for the 50% rule on the SA. Notice the wording of 210.52 (B)(1). It specifically mentions all "wall and floor", "countertop" and "refrigeration(w/exception)" receptacle outlets. What other types do we have in the kitchen? Inside cabinet outlets for semi-fixed or fixed appliances. Those appliances need to find their own power; small ones can tag along on other circuits, big ones are demanding their own, based on the 50% rule.
The Bath Fan w/Vanity is small, acceptable to 210.23 and 210.11.
What I interpret that to mean is, "Hey, chucklehead, don't forget that Laundry, SA, and Bath circuits are special and have special rules. Read their sections before you do something stupid..." It may be a circular reference, but it's understandable that they want you to run the base paths before you start mixing things in with the Bath GFI that don't belong.
Does that make sense?
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: sec210.11(C)(3) Bathroom branch circuits
Don't know how edit posts, sorry...
In essence, the reference forward from 210.11 to 210.23, is saying, "Observe the 50% rule when applying this trick." This prevents us from installing a 12 amp super heater whiz-bang monstrosity and calling it a bath fan.
The reference backward from 210.23 to 210.11 is preventing a novice from pulling out of the 3rd bathroom's GFI to a small bath fan under the guise that "...it's a small bath fan, so I'm covered under the 50% rule for all 15 and 20 amp circuits. Bath GFI circuits aren't special..."
I'd imagine the exception to 210.23 should be amended to read, "...by 210.11(C)(1)...(2)...(3) shall be installed in accordance with those sections." That's how 210.11's exception reads, and it is clearer.
Don't know how edit posts, sorry...
In essence, the reference forward from 210.11 to 210.23, is saying, "Observe the 50% rule when applying this trick." This prevents us from installing a 12 amp super heater whiz-bang monstrosity and calling it a bath fan.
The reference backward from 210.23 to 210.11 is preventing a novice from pulling out of the 3rd bathroom's GFI to a small bath fan under the guise that "...it's a small bath fan, so I'm covered under the 50% rule for all 15 and 20 amp circuits. Bath GFI circuits aren't special..."
I'd imagine the exception to 210.23 should be amended to read, "...by 210.11(C)(1)...(2)...(3) shall be installed in accordance with those sections." That's how 210.11's exception reads, and it is clearer.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: sec210.11(C)(3) Bathroom branch circuits
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