Laundry Project

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sid

Member
Location
Connecticut
I am working on this laundry project and I am confused on what service to use 400A?? or not, the loads are as follow

at 100%

laundry equipment "dryer, and washer" = 123568VA
at 65% kitchen equipment = 21421.4VA
2 Condensing units and 2 AHU units = 30934VA

Lighting

2va x 4000 sq.ft = 8000va
Receptacle = 23 x 180va = 4140va

can you please help me with the load and the conduit and wire sizes for entrance service.


Thanks
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Laundry Project

This looks more like a sample test question than a real design project. Is it? I say that because pinning down the laundry equipment load to six significant digits, and having kitchen load at 32,956 (65% of which is the 21421.4 you list) - another five significant digits - is not real-life stuff.

The question cannot be answered without knowing the supply voltage and number of phases.
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
Re: Laundry Project

Its more complicated than we can get into here, esp on the "Entrance Service". Need to know type of occupancy, type of conduit, distance, any local codes or ordinances.
However if you contact Mike Holts office he has an excellent book on Electrical Calculations that will walk you through this...

[ August 04, 2003, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: tom baker ]
 

roger

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Staff member
Location
Fl
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Retired Electrician
Re: Laundry Project

No disrespect intended but can someone tell me what the qualifications are for a "consultant"?

Roger
 

sid

Member
Location
Connecticut
Re: Laundry Project

I am only confused with the laundry equipment because its a nondwelling unit and the code only talks about dwelling units, the service is 208/120 3phase 4 wire
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Laundry Project

The code does not say the following very clearly, but it is nevertheless quite true: You are free to install a service that is sized to handle every single connected load in the facility, presuming that all are running at the same time. What section 220 does for us is to recognize that, for some facilities and under some circumstances, not all connected loads will be running at the same time. The code therefore allows us to size the service for less than the total connected load, and gives us methods, demand factors, and rules for calculating a ?minimum? service size. But if you are building a facility for which the code does not include special demand factors, then you must size the service for 100% of all connected load.

I have not gone through your entire list of loads, to see whether you have included everything that you need to include. I too am a consultant (by the way Roger, my qualifications for that title are that I charge a high fee for my services), and already know enough about your facility to know what additional questions I would be asking, if I were to take over the design efforts. But a quick addition of you list of loads gives me the result of 188.1 KVA. For a 3-phase, 208V system, this translates to about 522 amps (divide by 208, and divide again by the square root of 3). So I can surmise that a 400 amp service is out. The next step up would be 600 amps, but you might need to go higher (as I said, I don?t know if you have included everything).

As to the size of the service conductors, you can start with Table 310.16. But that will only give you the minimum size to accommodate the service amps. You may need to go with larger cables, if voltage drop is an issue.
 

sid

Member
Location
Connecticut
Re: Laundry Project

Thank you Charlie b. this was realy helpful, but I still have one more question, that when I talked to the Electric Company, they said that 400Amp which translate to 144Kva should be more than enough. I did exactly what you have calculated, and I came with the exact number "522A". and thats where the question came up, can I use the demand factor for the dwelling unit, on this commercial project or no..???
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: Laundry Project

Hi Charlie b,
(by the way Roger, my qualifications for that title are that I charge a high fee for my services),
thanks, I think I could be one too. :D

Sid, I truly did not mean any disrespect, I just thought there was alot to be disired in the way the question was asked and wondered exactly what level of knowledge a "consultant" would need to have.

Roger
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Laundry Project

Originally posted by sid:Can I use the demand factor for the dwelling unit, on this commercial project or no..???
No. The Section 220 demand factors are for dwelling units and a few specific other types of facilities. A commercial laundry is not one of these.

However, without knowing it (or so I suspect), you have just changed your own question! When you bring the utility into the discussion, the rules are altered. Generally, the designer or the electrical contractor will tell the utility the results of a load calculation that was performed per the NEC section we have been discussing. Then the utility will use their own set of rules for determining what size of service to give you. It is entirely reasonable for you to tell the utility that your load calculation result is 522 amps, and for them to respond by saying that a 400 amp service should suffice. The utility bases their calculations on experience with the type of facility and on factors that do not appear in the NEC.

Now let?s pretend we are talking about a different commercial facility that I am designing. Let?s suppose that I perform a complete NEC load calculation, and get the result of 522 amps. Finally, let?s suppose that the utility proposes to give me a 400 amp service. I would accept that service, but I would still select a set of service equipment that is rated for at least 600 amps.
 
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