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  1. So you really think it is really possible to have...

    So you really think it is really possible to have a (code compliant) service with no 'service disconnecting means'?

    Do you also think that the disconnecting means don't have to comply with any...
  2. Smart$ If the definition of a service changed...

    Smart$

    If the definition of a service changed to what I suggested, would you revise all your interpretations?
  3. You're contradicting yourself. In post #26 you...

    You're contradicting yourself. In post #26 you said "the disconnect must have a neutral to enclosure bond." ggunn asked for where the code says that, and now your saying that it doesn't say it...
  4. 250.24(C) and 250.92(A)(1) The problem with...

    250.24(C) and 250.92(A)(1)

    The problem with Smart$ argument is that neither of these sections unambiguously applies to a supply side PV disconnect if such a disco is not already considered a...
  5. The distinction between Service Equipment and...

    The distinction between Service Equipment and Service Disconnecting Means is clearly lost on the AHJs who are telling participants in this forum not to bond the neutral. That's why I think it will...
  6. So you say it's not a service disconnect, but you...

    So you say it's not a service disconnect, but you say to do everything as if it is. Right.
  7. And what about the solar GEC? If it's a...

    And what about the solar GEC? If it's a 690.47(C)(3) combined EGC/GEC, where does it need to terminate? Can it run through the same enclosure and raceways as the service conductors?
  8. Thanks, I'm aware. Hopefully I'll have several. ...

    Thanks, I'm aware. Hopefully I'll have several. :D
  9. There's no good reason not to change the...

    There's no good reason not to change the definition of a service. I'll propose to simply change "to" and "from" to "between" and "and". There should be no practical consequences except to remove...
  10. I'll give you my opinion, but there are a few...

    I'll give you my opinion, but there are a few different code sections that can be used to argue either way. See iwire's postings.



    If you believe that the disconnect is a service disconnecting...
  11. Yes. I know exactly where I'll be proposing a...

    Yes. I know exactly where I'll be proposing a revision.
  12. 1st) A service is made of energy? 2nd) you...

    1st) A service is made of energy?

    2nd) you have a problem with 230.2(A)(5).

    3rd) It's clearly nonsensical to argue that the physical elements of a service temporarily cease to be a service as...
  13. Code wise you are supposed to have both. ...

    Code wise you are supposed to have both. Functionally, assuming the neutral is installed correctly and properly bonded at both ends, it probably adds little benefit to have the GEC run between the...
  14. Well the first part of 690.15 requires...

    Well the first part of 690.15 requires disconnecting means from all sources of energization to be "grouped and identified", whether the inverter is readily accessible or not. I think if you put...
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    Attached is a picture of a fairly common Square D...

    Attached is a picture of a fairly common Square D panel that is what I thought was meant by 4-pole breaker. But there's only one set of busbars, as the diagram makes clear.

    It makes no sense...
  16. Note the very important exception to that rule,...

    Note the very important exception to that rule, which says that if the installation complies with 690.31(E), then the disco can be remote from the point of entry, e.g. at the inverter. 690.31(E)...
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    Point one: They are only required for...

    Point one: They are only required for micro-inverters that utilize an exposed AC cable on the array.

    Point two: There doesn't seem to be any AFCI breakers that are clearly listed to be backfed,...
  18. I think this is really more of a regulatory...

    I think this is really more of a regulatory question than a technical one. It depends exactly how the state's net-metering law is written. Also you'd need to AHJ approval.
  19. The second part of that is entailed by all sorts...

    The second part of that is entailed by all sorts of other rules, and would be a given in practice.
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    I don't see any problem with this. Just like...

    I don't see any problem with this. Just like oversizing a conductor. It's OCPD where oversizing would be an issue. Is that what you meant to ask?
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    You mean when there's no space left? I think...

    You mean when there's no space left? I think I've done that once. More often I just add a sub off the existing panel and move a couple circuits to it. Every job is a little different.
  22. mfountai, your reasoning is fine, which is why...

    mfountai, your reasoning is fine, which is why the 2014 code allows one method to be that all the branch breaker ratings don't exceed the rating of the busbar. However, as Smart$ described, you'll...
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    As an installer I only do line side taps within...

    As an installer I only do line side taps within the existing service enclosure if there is plenty of wire bending space. Namely, I try to meet 312.6 and 312.8, at least by my eyeball.

    I think you...
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    690.47(C) (1), (2), or (3)? At least if...

    690.47(C) (1), (2), or (3)?

    At least if you're on the 2011 code I agree there are no additional ground rods required. The solar GEC can go to the existing residential grounding electrode system.
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    I'm not going to offer any help, but I'm trying...

    I'm not going to offer any help, but I'm trying to put this all together and understand if I've gathered correctly...





    If this were a delta with no transformer then blowing two fuses would...
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