zog
Senior Member
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
There will be in a few months, just ironing out some details.
Justification for live work
- Thread starter cornbread
- Start date
- Status
There will be in a few months, just ironing out some details.
You can work it hot if you have justification for live "infeasible due to equipment design ... integral part of a continuous process". Any thing over 50volts is considered live. For 120Vac panels at our plant we always ask "can it be shut off", if not then we go thru the process of a risk assessment and filling out an energized work permit. It's extra work but in my humble opinion it?s worth it. I'm am surprised at how often we are able to shut things off that in the past would have been worked live with out any type of risk assessment.
yucan2
Senior Member
- Location
- Just south of Chicago
Experience is one heck of an "instructor".
I was once a young bullheaded go getter. Now I'm just bull headed but very safety conscious.
I rolled into a town once long ago and signed book 2 expecting to be sitting awhile. This particular local allowed at the time one to list any special or job specific abilities. I listed motor control among others.
Well anyway, surprise, surprise, I got a call at home to come to the hall, within about a week. Very unusual. I went of course and was told that there had been an accident at this particular location and that they were in need of an immediate replacement by someone with an industrial motor control background. No information was provided as to what type of accident had occurred just "you want the job or not?". I took it.
After the usual welcome aboard greetings, etc to the new plant electrician I finally got some accident specific details as to what happened to this guy.
Now this company did not produce any products that were "mission critical" or have an environment whereby safety would be compromised were power shut down. They simply produced a product(s) that generated boat loads of money.
Well, anyway along comes a scenario where a bucket needs to be replaced and all electricians on staff were apparently of the same mind, "we'll do it on the weekend" where the running processes are minimal and we can shut the MCC down. All but one that is. One JW says, "I can do it live", and make tons of brownie points with management. No time and a half for (2) JW's on the weekend and who knows maybe management will see my foreman potential.
You probably know the rest. During the week in the midst of peak production, he attempts his "Superman Impersonation". Things went awry, 3rd degree burns over a large portion of his arm. Needed numerous skin grafts, off work for six months, endless snickers from co-workers upon his return and he got to meet me
Oh yes, that portion of the plant was down for (2) days. They lost a mint!
I stuck around a few more months then moved on.
Now here's how I play it, mam/sir what day would you like us to shut down the MCC so we can replace that bucket? Not, can we shut down the MCC to replace that bucket. Never had to walk away from a job yet. :smile:
I was once a young bullheaded go getter. Now I'm just bull headed but very safety conscious.
I rolled into a town once long ago and signed book 2 expecting to be sitting awhile. This particular local allowed at the time one to list any special or job specific abilities. I listed motor control among others.
Well anyway, surprise, surprise, I got a call at home to come to the hall, within about a week. Very unusual. I went of course and was told that there had been an accident at this particular location and that they were in need of an immediate replacement by someone with an industrial motor control background. No information was provided as to what type of accident had occurred just "you want the job or not?". I took it.
After the usual welcome aboard greetings, etc to the new plant electrician I finally got some accident specific details as to what happened to this guy.
Now this company did not produce any products that were "mission critical" or have an environment whereby safety would be compromised were power shut down. They simply produced a product(s) that generated boat loads of money.
Well, anyway along comes a scenario where a bucket needs to be replaced and all electricians on staff were apparently of the same mind, "we'll do it on the weekend" where the running processes are minimal and we can shut the MCC down. All but one that is. One JW says, "I can do it live", and make tons of brownie points with management. No time and a half for (2) JW's on the weekend and who knows maybe management will see my foreman potential.
You probably know the rest. During the week in the midst of peak production, he attempts his "Superman Impersonation". Things went awry, 3rd degree burns over a large portion of his arm. Needed numerous skin grafts, off work for six months, endless snickers from co-workers upon his return and he got to meet me
Oh yes, that portion of the plant was down for (2) days. They lost a mint!I stuck around a few more months then moved on.
Now here's how I play it, mam/sir what day would you like us to shut down the MCC so we can replace that bucket? Not, can we shut down the MCC to replace that bucket. Never had to walk away from a job yet. :smile:
Last edited:
weressl
Esteemed Member
zog
Senior Member
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
Sorry, cant say yet.
weressl
Esteemed Member
It is interesting that while they say that the bucket can be removed live, while the doors closed, because of the reduced the hazard, they do NOT say to what level it is reduced to. In one place they identify the removal of open door cubicles as level 3 and at another it is 2. After all the development work to accomplish this, they also provide remote racking?
Infeasible or feasible
Infeasible or feasible
The statement below comes from an interpretation by OSHA check this link before working energized and having an unplanned event.
"It appears that your panel is not part of a "continuous industrial process." The term "continuous industrial process" was derived from its use in the National Electrical Code (NEC). In the NEC "continuous industrial process" is used in the context of situations where the orderly shut down of integrated processes and equipment would introduce additional or increased hazards.1 Therefore, to qualify for the exception found in Note 2 of ?1910.333(a)(1), the employer must, on a case-by-case basis, determine if the orderly shutdown of the related equipment (including the panel) and processes would introduce additional or increased hazards. If so, then the employer may perform the work using the electrical safe work practices found in ??1910.331-1910.335, including, but not limited to, insulated tools, shields, barrier, and personal protective equipment. If the orderly shutdown of the related equipment and processes would not introduce additional or increased hazards, but merely alter or interrupt production, then the de-energization of the equipment would be considered feasible, and the exception found in Note 2 of ?1910.333(a)(1) would not apply."
Source link follows
http://osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=25559
Infeasible or feasible
The statement below comes from an interpretation by OSHA check this link before working energized and having an unplanned event.
"It appears that your panel is not part of a "continuous industrial process." The term "continuous industrial process" was derived from its use in the National Electrical Code (NEC). In the NEC "continuous industrial process" is used in the context of situations where the orderly shut down of integrated processes and equipment would introduce additional or increased hazards.1 Therefore, to qualify for the exception found in Note 2 of ?1910.333(a)(1), the employer must, on a case-by-case basis, determine if the orderly shutdown of the related equipment (including the panel) and processes would introduce additional or increased hazards. If so, then the employer may perform the work using the electrical safe work practices found in ??1910.331-1910.335, including, but not limited to, insulated tools, shields, barrier, and personal protective equipment. If the orderly shutdown of the related equipment and processes would not introduce additional or increased hazards, but merely alter or interrupt production, then the de-energization of the equipment would be considered feasible, and the exception found in Note 2 of ?1910.333(a)(1) would not apply."
Source link follows
http://osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=25559
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
They brought out a section for us to look at and the information that they provided when they had the section on site was that the PPE would be 0 or 1. It was in writing, but I did not find that on the site I linked to. Their reference to level 3 is for a standard MCC per a table in NFPA 70E. They say this in one of their documents:
"Can reduce risk category from CAT3 to CAT0."
That is consistent with what I was told by the sales engineers.
Note that even with the reduced PPE requirements, there still no general permission in 70E to remove or install a bucked with the bus live.
weressl
Esteemed Member
- Status