load calculations required-multifamily dwelling building

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mjmike

Senior Member
Ok, I have an existing multi-family dwelling unit building with individual dwelling units within. It has a 240V 3-wire service at 400A There are 6 units on the first floor, 17 units on the 2nd floor and 17 units on the 3rd floor. Currently, there is 1 feeder per floor and taps off this feeder to each dwelling unit panel which is 30A 240V. Due to the age of the panels, as a maintenance upgrade, we are replacing the panels, removing the existing main feeder to each floor and install new in the same conduit but of a larger size. The new feeder on the first floor will be 90A and on the 2nd and 3rd floor 150A. Taps to dwelling unit panels won?t be used, as we will have splices with same size panel feeder as the main feeder. The load centers will all be 60A except for a couple on the 2nd floor which will be 100A due to having electric ranges. ? the units have window a/c units now and they will add the rest of the window a/c units in the future. The a/c units plug into the closest receptacle. I have utility bill info and it can handle the additional a/c units.

Here is my question, we are doing this design work as a maintenance item and while doing it, improving the system by maximizing the existing conduit and doubling the size of the dwelling unit panel. Does all the calculations for feeder sizes and panel sizes need to be done such as 220.83, article 220 part III, etc? I do not think so, but I want to be prepared if the inspector asks. The way I see it, we are not adding any permanently connected load or upgrading the service entrance. This may sound odd, but if calculations are required, the service may not be large enough (by book numbers), the existing conduit my need to be removed and made larger as the feeders are too small (by the book numbers) etc and this is more than what we are trying to accomplish. Based on the utility info (1 years data) and that apartments with a/c now are fine with the existing 30A load centers, the system will work. Any thoughts?
 

gndrod

Senior Member
Location
Ca and Wa
DF total

DF total

Ok, I have an existing multi-family dwelling unit building with individual dwelling units within. It has a 240V 3-wire service at 400A There are 6 units on the first floor, 17 units on the 2nd floor and 17 units on the 3rd floor. Currently, there is 1 feeder per floor and taps off this feeder to each dwelling unit panel which is 30A 240V. Due to the age of the panels, as a maintenance upgrade, we are replacing the panels, removing the existing main feeder to each floor and install new in the same conduit but of a larger size. The new feeder on the first floor will be 90A and on the 2nd and 3rd floor 150A. Taps to dwelling unit panels won?t be used, as we will have splices with same size panel feeder as the main feeder. The load centers will all be 60A except for a couple on the 2nd floor which will be 100A due to having electric ranges. ? the units have window a/c units now and they will add the rest of the window a/c units in the future. The a/c units plug into the closest receptacle. I have utility bill info and it can handle the additional a/c units.

Here is my question, we are doing this design work as a maintenance item and while doing it, improving the system by maximizing the existing conduit and doubling the size of the dwelling unit panel. Does all the calculations for feeder sizes and panel sizes need to be done such as 220.83, article 220 part III, etc? I do not think so, but I want to be prepared if the inspector asks. The way I see it, we are not adding any permanently connected load or upgrading the service entrance. This may sound odd, but if calculations are required, the service may not be large enough (by book numbers), the existing conduit my need to be removed and made larger as the feeders are too small (by the book numbers) etc and this is more than what we are trying to accomplish. Based on the utility info (1 years data) and that apartments with a/c now are fine with the existing 30A load centers, the system will work. Any thoughts?

I see where you are going. No FIP upgrades looks good by itself, but I would question 'Have existing calcs been compared to a complete A/C retrofit?' What would happen to the overall system loading should all the units (factored according to manufacturers data) have every a/c unit in the complex running continuously on a hot day? Is it marginal? Just asking....rbj
 

mjmike

Senior Member
I have done calculations to verify the new window a/c units could be supported by the existing service and upgraded feeder and dwelling unit panel. This is going by actual utility bills and an estimated window a/c unit size which could be added in the future. In the meantime since my post, I have performed the calculations shown in the 05 nec handboox annex D, example D4(a). per that calc, though slightily different, the intended upgrade is acceptable. I would hope these calcs would satisfy the inspector if asked for them?? However, I still do not think the actual calcs would need to be performed and would be shown as a last resort only.
 

gndrod

Senior Member
Location
Ca and Wa
Calcs compared

Calcs compared

I have done calculations to verify the new window a/c units could be supported by the existing service and upgraded feeder and dwelling unit panel. This is going by actual utility bills and an estimated window a/c unit size which could be added in the future. In the meantime since my post, I have performed the calculations shown in the 05 nec handboox annex D, example D4(a). per that calc, though slightily different, the intended upgrade is acceptable. I would hope these calcs would satisfy the inspector if asked for them?? However, I still do not think the actual calcs would need to be performed and would be shown as a last resort only.

No offense Mike, If I were inspecting, I would ask for the comparison using 220.84 Optional against the 220.83(B) additional 20 of 40 A/C loads to a 400A main even though they are not FIP. rbj
 

steve66

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
Engineer
90 amps for 6 dwellings with air conditioning? That sounds really small. Are there any kitchens at all? 90 amps will barely cover the small appliance circuits.

Steve
 

gndrod

Senior Member
Location
Ca and Wa
90 amps for 6 dwellings with air conditioning? That sounds really small. Are there any kitchens at all? 90 amps will barely cover the small appliance circuits.

Steve

90 A is certainly close. I did a quick optional 220.84 for 6 units @ 750 sf with Genl, SA, and Laundry with baseboard heat as high Load w/o A/c and factoring 45% DF for 6 comes out to 114 Amps. That is w/o range, micro, dw and partial house meter. 40 units on 400 A main with added conditioning sounds tight. But then, I plugged in 750 sf for a general wag on the bottom six. rbj
 

benaround

Senior Member
Location
Arizona
However, I still do not think the actual calcs would need to be performed and would be shown as a last resort only.

The Inspector can request them per 215.5

Also, I think you are going to have a ruff time getting this design approved as a

maintance upgrade. jmo
 

mjmike

Senior Member
The dwelling units are an average of about 400 sq. ft. counting multiple closets and restroom. I had also look at 220.84 but I do not have electric cooking devices in every space. Also, the A/C is a window unit plugged into a 120V outlet for the living room area only. As for heat, the building is gas. Therefore, no resistive heating elements. Thanks for the advice guys.
 
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