1 wire considered 2??

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69gp

Senior Member
Location
MA
I just had a job not pass inspection because the inspector said I had 2 ground wires under a lug designed for only one conductor. So here is the scenario. I had to run a feeder with a #4 ground wire. At a midpoint of the run I installed a 18"x18" junction box with a ground bar that had 12 position in it, one for a 1/0 and the balance would be for up to #6. I did not cut the #4 ground just stripped back about 3" of insulation put some green tape on each side of the bare exposed copper about 6" back. I then folded the exposed copper in half and then took my pliers and squeezed the end together to make it fit into the lug for the 1/0. torqued the connection to the specified setting and as far as I was concerned it was a good install.

The inspector would not pass the install insisting that the lug is not designed for 2 conductors. I pulled the ground wire out to show him it was still only one wire but still failed. Small town not sure if he just want to show his knowledge. He would not sign off on the permit and also said he was not going to give me in writing the code violation he alleges that is present. He is required to do here in MA. Sure I know some will say to just add an approved lug to the ground bar to make it compliant. But it was the end of the day and I was out in the boonies, supply house would have been closed by the time i got to it so I just let it go. It is 2 hours one way to the site and I am not going back.
 

Dennis Alwon

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I would also agree with the inspector if the connection appeared tight I may have let it go. I have seen alot worse
 

GoldDigger

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Location
Placerville, CA, USA
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Retired PV System Designer
One wire stripped in the middle and connected to a lay-in lug is one wire. What you did is mechanically if not electrically equivalent to two wires.
I would also have looked at the allowable conductor size range for the 1/0 lug, since even a doubled #4 is smaller than 1/0.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
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Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
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I had to run a feeder with a #4 ground wire. At a midpoint of the run I installed a 18"x18" junction box with a ground bar that had 12 position in it, one for a 1/0 and the balance would be for up to #6. I did not cut the #4 ground just stripped back about 3" of insulation put some green tape on each side of the bare exposed copper about 6" back. I then folded the exposed copper in half and then took my pliers and squeezed the end together to make it fit into the lug for the 1/0.
Are you sure the big hole doesn't have a range of wire sizes up to 1/0 listed on it? It would have to be one honkin' big ground bar to have 1/0 as the smallest conductor listed on the wire sizes.
 

69gp

Senior Member
Location
MA
Are you sure the big hole doesn't have a range of wire sizes up to 1/0 listed on it? It would have to be one honkin' big ground bar to have 1/0 as the smallest conductor listed on the wire sizes.

No it was one lug on the end that would take up to a 1/0 wire the balance of the ground screws would take up to #6 wires. the bar was bolted through the side of the box with nuts and star washers. Paint was ground off and coated with Rust-Oleum Clear rust inhibitor after tightening everything. The reason for the bar as opposed to lugs is that there was a couple of smaller conduits with some #12 that need to be attached to the ground bar as well.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
So 69" are you saying that you doubled over a wire in a lug that probably was rated for the size wire you installed and just doubled it to make a tighter fit?
 

infinity

Moderator
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Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
I know of no lug that is listed for a conductor that is folded over, violation in my book. Is there any electrical difference in these two photo's?

IMG_0222.JPG


IMG_0221.JPG
 

69gp

Senior Member
Location
MA
I know of no lug that is listed for a conductor that is folded over, violation in my book. Is there any electrical difference in these two photo's?

IMG_0222.JPG


IMG_0221.JPG

I would say that the top picture would be ok if the circular mills of the wire when doubled would not be greater than what the lug allowed. I can pull the wire out from under the lug and pull the wire tight and its one wire no loose ends.

the bottom photo is clearly 2 ends of a wire under one lug. Not good if the lug is only rated for one wire. if you take the wire out from the lug you would have 2 ends.


Even though the wire is doubled its still one wire unless someone can show me in the code where it is not allowed.

Oh by the way did you have those already made up?? if not that was some fast work to fabricate, take a picture and post.
 

GoldDigger

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Placerville, CA, USA
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Then just land the #4 in the big hole without bending it over, #4 has to be in the range it is listed for.
I think that the OP's plan was to be able to wire in two directions from the panel without having to make splices (either reversible or not). Hence attaching the middle of the long wire to the lug.
 

infinity

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Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
.I would say that the top picture would be ok if the circular mills of the wire when doubled would not be greater than what the lug allowed. I can pull the wire out from under the lug and pull the wire tight and its one wire no loose ends.

the bottom photo is clearly 2 ends of a wire under one lug. Not good if the lug is only rated for one wire. if you take the wire out from the lug you would have 2 ends.


Even though the wire is doubled its still one wire unless someone can show me in the code where it is not allowed.

Oh by the way did you have those already made up?? if not that was some fast work to fabricate, take a picture and post.

You would have to show that the lug is listed as you've stated which it isn't. Using a "pull test" is not worth much, in the second photo would you accept a "pull test" as the connection being OK?

Those photo's were from a discussion we had here a few year ago about the same topic of folding over conductors, I took them back then. :)
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I would say that the top picture would be ok if the circular mills of the wire when doubled would not be greater than what the lug allowed.

What you say may make sense and would likely work fine but it is not how things work when dealing with listings, the NEC and inspections.

Bottom line is that the lug must be listed for the wire size and type you put in it. Doubling it up, adding a second wire to fill the space etc is not acceptable.

I agree with the inspector, take it as a learning lesson and in the future pay attention to the labeling on the terminals.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I think you hit on something no one ever considered when these rules were made. It is clearly one conductor.

Having said that, I would want to closely read what the instructions that came with the lugs actually says before I would say you found a loop hole.

I would suggest just cutting the conductor and stacking another lug for the second conductor.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I think you hit on something no one ever considered when these rules were made. It is clearly one conductor.

Having said that, I would want to closely read what the instructions that came with the lugs actually says before I would say you found a loop hole.

I would suggest just cutting the conductor and stacking another lug for the second conductor.

It is one conductor but it is taking up the same cross section and is effectively two conductors to the lug that is rated for one conductor.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
I'm getting Jbox with multiple branch/feeder circuits as a feed thru so the largest EGC would be the only required non current carrying conductor to be bonded to the enclosure.
 
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