Need some input on a situation...

Status
Not open for further replies.

c2500

Senior Member
Location
South Carolina
Mid 60's to early 70's home. Zinsco outside panel. 60 amp breaker feeds to a small GE sub panel. A bathroom was being redone, and #12 feeds into an old metal switch box. Both side screws are used for wire, and the third feed is in the backstab hole. The undersized ground wire is melted into two pieces. The three hots have a clear, deep indentation, in their insulation the size of the ground wire. After the bathroom, including bath lighting, this circuit feeds the kitchen countertop receptacles, dishwasher, disposal, and the lighting load for two other rooms.

What I figured from a visual only inspection was the load on the wires was high enough that the wiring was getting hot from the load in addition to the back stab being used (resistance there). Since it is older insulation, the heat softened the insulation, allowing the hot to arc to the ground and melt the undersized wire without tripping the breaker. The wire did have evidence of arcing. The insulation on the nuetral wires also had the appearance of minor cracking at the bend points.

My solution was to run a new circuit to the bathrom with a GFI receptacle, and a secondary circuit to pickup the additional load.

Unfortunately I am in the middle of a job and the HO wanted it done today. An EC of 35 years went out and slapped a GFI in the same box and said it will cure any problems related to the circuit being overloaded because it will trip. He also said the ground just broke due to age.

Am I off base in my logic? I am friends with the HO's son and he was displeased with the solution provided by the EC.

Thanks for the input....

c2500
 

criss

Member
Location
new york city
mc cable vs bx cable

mc cable vs bx cable

i am curious to know in a NYC residential apt is it mandatory to use MC cable
or can i get away with using regular BX,, where in NEC would i find this
wiring methods??
i know i would use MC on a commercial job in NYC
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
As Larry noted, you are correct with your concern. The NEC won't help you on NYC acceptable wring methods.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Unfortunately I am in the middle of a job and the HO wanted it done today. An EC of 35 years went out and slapped a GFI in the same box and said it will cure any problems related to the circuit being overloaded because it will trip. He also said the ground just broke due to age.

I am friends with the HO's son and he was displeased with the solution provided by the EC.

The HO"s son is correct and that's not much of a solution but it really depends on if he has any say in the matter.

It sound as if the homeowner knows who you are and they are aware of your proposed repairs ( new circuits). If they decide that they want to go that way all they have to do is give a call.

If you do get involved then fix it right and if not then stay clear.
 

c2500

Senior Member
Location
South Carolina
I am not to concerned with it. I just love having a "35 year EC" spouting off that a GFI is the cure all. But hey, the company did win the "best of the upstate" electrical award for the past two years, so who am I to say anything.:D Ironically I used to work for the newspaper that runs the award and whoever gets the most votes wins....even if they steal the ballots out of the newspapers recycling area.

My friend knows the solution was incorrect, but he is unsure if he can get his parents to listen to reason.

c2500
 

hybwolf

Member
Not saying it's the right thing to do but it sounds like this contractor is treating the box with a broken ground as a non-grounding type receptacle replacement per 406.3(D)(3).
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
... After the bathroom, including bath lighting, this circuit feeds the kitchen countertop receptacles, dishwasher, disposal, and the lighting load for two other rooms.


c2500
What size overcurrent protection was supplying all of this. If it was 20 amps they had to reset it often, if it was 30 amps they had to reset it once in a while, if it was 40 amps or more they may never have to reset it at all:mad:
 

rt66electric

Senior Member
Location
Oklahoma
patch job vs. resolution as. price

patch job vs. resolution as. price

Either solution is acceptable ??

Patch job for <$100 or add circuits and rewire house for >$1000. Explain to the customer pro and cons of each solution, and let them decide.
 

c2500

Senior Member
Location
South Carolina
What size overcurrent protection was supplying all of this. If it was 20 amps they had to reset it often, if it was 30 amps they had to reset it once in a while, if it was 40 amps or more they may never have to reset it at all:mad:

It is fed by a 20 amp breaker. I am not sure how often it was reset, but I am thinking it may be worn out. That is an awful lot of load for a single 20 amp circuit. A worn out breaker would explain the wire getting hot enough to allow the ground to imprint into the insulation of the hot conductors.

c2500
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top