Does my main service panel need grounded?

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yzman720

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Location
Missouri
I am a little confused on if I need to ground my service panel box inside the home?
There is no sub panel
There is no ufer ground in the footing. On the outside of the home I am running 2 - 5/8" ground rods 6' apart with a continuous #4 bare copper between them and then terminating at the meter base. The home is all electric with no gas and ran completely in pex so there is nothing to ground to inside the home. Does the service panel inside the home need grounding? It is a 200amp service panel.
I included a pic of my panel if it helps for anything.
Any input it great appreciated!
 

qcroanoke

Sometimes I don't know if I'm the boxer or the bag
Location
Roanoke, VA.
Occupation
Sorta retired........
Where I'm located POCO would never allow a ground in their meter box so I really don't know...
You would have to at least bond it I would think......
 

yzman720

Member
Location
Missouri
I have always ran my #4 copper from the gec and terminated at the meter base. This particular utility company (Ameren) told me I could not run from the meter base to the panel with a ground though the same entry as the 2/0 copper terminals for some reason. This is a brick house and I don't want to drill a separate hole just to terminate the house service panel box if it is not necessary? just curious if the house panel box needs grounded
 

roger

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Location
Fl
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Retired Electrician
I have always ran my #4 copper from the gec and terminated at the meter base. This particular utility company (Ameren) told me I could not run from the meter base to the panel with a ground though the same entry as the 2/0 copper terminals for some reason.
You would be creating a parallel neutral conductor. Do as Don said and you're done.

BTW, as far as the NEC is concerned you can use #6 for the rods and they can be farther apart than 6', just not closer.

Roger
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
I am running 2 - 5/8" ground rods 6' apart with a continuous #4 bare copper between them and then terminating at the meter base.


Are they going to allow this? If they allow the neutral and ground bonding at the meter base I think you will just need to bond the panel to the neutral bar (green screw). Neutral and ground will not need to be seperated.

I would call the inspection department because around here this would not be allowed. Me I would drill the brick and use some redish brick colored calk to seal around the GEC. It's not that big of a deal.

The thinking here is that if you get a bad neutral connection at the meter base you would lose the ground at the panel and the panel does need to be grounded.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Are they going to allow this? If they allow the neutral and ground bonding at the meter base I think you will just need to bond the panel to the neutral bar (green screw). Neutral and ground will not need to be seperated.

I would call the inspection department because around here this would not be allowed. Me I would drill the brick and use some redish brick colored calk to seal around the GEC. It's not that big of a deal.

The thinking here is that if you get a bad neutral connection at the meter base you would lose the ground at the panel and the panel does need to be grounded.
The main purpose of the GEC is protection from accidental contact with higher voltages and from lighting. Why would you want to bring that into the building?

The ground rod provides almost no protection for an open neutral connection.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
The main purpose of the GEC is protection from accidental contact with higher voltages and from lighting. Why would you want to bring that into the building?

The ground rod provides almost no protection for an open neutral connection.



I didn't say that ground rods provide protection from open neutrals.

I said that in this area if you bond your neutral and ground any place other than the main disconnect you will have trouble with the inspection department.

It's been years but I have failed an inspection for doing what the OP has in mind.

That's why I suggest he call his local inspector. Opinions on a forum are great but we don't get to sign off on the job and the inspector does. I have learned to do what the inspector is used to seeing and that way I pass inspection with no problems and this saves time.

Being right doesn't make me any money and I don't even get that warm and fuzzy feeling anymore.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
Is this new construction? he said no steel in the footer, here in new construction when steel is installed in the footer then it is an available electrode prior to pour and shall be part of the electrode system.
 

meternerd

Senior Member
Location
Athol, ID
Occupation
retired water & electric utility electrician, meter/relay tech
Maybe I'm blind, but...I don't see any service wiring from the meter to the panel. The conduit appears empty and I don't see any wires terminated in the three L1, L2 and Neutral lugs at the top of the panel. Most utilities require an outside service disconnect. That's where the bonding of the MBJ, GEC, etc would be. What feeds the main breaker? Is the breaker the service disconnect? If so, the GEC has to terminate there along with the MBJ. Both have to bond to the neutral/ground bus. Looking at it from a POCO perspective, though, so I may be full of baloney. POCO may not allow a ground in its sealed metering panel section (ahead of the service disconnect), but bonding has to meet code.
 
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Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
I believe the GEC can be attached anywhere from the POA on in to the neutral bar of the service equipment where the Main Bonding Jumper (250.24(B)) is connected. That is the point where the EGC and the Neutral can no longer be connected. Your local POCO may have a preference but that does not have anything to do with the NEC. One of ours wanted one in the meter socket. The SED did not.

Overhead drops to buildings often had the GEC connected at the POA. Granted these were older installs and before Ufers but even now that bonding could take place outside of and prior to the Service disconnect.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Most utilities require an outside service disconnect.

You will have to change that to Most utilities (in my area) require an outside service disconnect.

Here in New England none that I know of require that and from the forums I have learned that is fairly common.
 

roger

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Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Most utilities require an outside service disconnect.
Not here in the Southeast, it's mostly a customer choice as to where the main is located.


Here is an illustration of where the GEC can be attached per the NEC.

1113854601_2.jpg


Roger
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
the GEC system IMO is best at the disconnecting means - accessible and simple. Most basic meter cans have the grounded conductor bonded to the frame. the way the OP has it the grounded conductor either has to be isolated at the panel if he installs a bonding jumper or the grounded conductor is also use as the bonding jumper then the panel fram is simply bonded to the grounded conductor -- I can't seem to find an exception on this(dead brain tuesday)
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Here the utility will not allow you to install anything, you are responsible for, in their equipment, since you are not supposed to have access to that equipment.

But, we also use mostly all-in-one panels here so we don't have the same kinds of issues.
 

meternerd

Senior Member
Location
Athol, ID
Occupation
retired water & electric utility electrician, meter/relay tech
You will have to change that to Most utilities (in my area) require an outside service disconnect.

Here in New England none that I know of require that and from the forums I have learned that is fairly common.

Interesting....If you don't require an outside disconnect, do you pull meters under load, wait for the customer to "maybe be home" or just move on to another job? We did a change-out of all electromechanical meters to electronic, and many times customers were not home (lots of second homeowners here by Tahoe). We do not allow our meter readers to pull meters under load, so that would have created a BIG headache for us. Older services w/o the outside disconnect were done by a meter tech or were temporarily disconnected at the pole/transformer by a line crew....slow and expensive. We have decided pulling meters under load is not worth the risk, so we stopped doing it. The biggest issue was with plugging in the new meter. Trying to line up the stabs without arcing was a problem on many meters because of obstructions to visibility. Usually due to decorative enclosures. Any arcing causes voltage problems for loads, so some customer claims about damage were made. Not worth arguing, so we usually just paid the claim.
 
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