Pigtail all devices proposal

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Cletis

Senior Member
Location
OH
If I made a proposal to pigtail (bypass) all devices that feed through to others (120V resi and commercial) as a proposal for a future NEC edition, do you think this would be something shot down in flames or considered ?

I"ve just seen so many failures from bad devices over the years which kill everything downstream thought it might be good to have as code. We have done it on all jobs for as long as I remember as a company policy so it won't affect us really.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
If I made a proposal to pigtail (bypass) all devices that feed through to others (120V resi and commercial) as a proposal for a future NEC edition, do you think this would be something shot down in flames or considered ?

I"ve just seen so many failures from bad devices over the years which kill everything downstream thought it might be good to have as code. We have done it on all jobs for as long as I remember as a company policy so it won't affect us really.


I think that pig tails are better but the code is a minimum set of standards concerned mainly with safety or helping electrical manufacturers make a profit.

Sure back stabbed devices do fail but I doubt you will be able to show that as a safety concern.

If you can get the manufacturers of wire nuts to say they have some sort of super wire nuts that are very expensive that will be required for all of these pig tails you may have a chance.

Good luck.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
How about posting your substantiation?

Proposals are all fine and dandy, but you're gonna need something to back it up.
 

Cletis

Senior Member
Location
OH
Here are a couple just to start with

http://www.homeinspector.org/resources/journals/Electric-Receptacles.pdf


https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/243828.pdf

I'm sure there are many many more. One of the main things i've noticed is when it happens and a customer loses 13 other outlets downstream they start running extension cords (the real cheap 16 gauge ones) all over the house til they can afford to fix. This would solve that problem. The sales of 4 port wago's and red wire nuts would go way up :happyyes:
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Glad it is not the law, just last Friday I connected a third pair of conductors too two duplex outlets.

Three blacks, three whites on each duplex. Life is good.
 

Cletis

Senior Member
Location
OH
I have seen a large number of wirenut failures, better ban those as well.

Any good electrician/electrical contractor knows to ignore the (no pretwist rule) and pre-twist anyway with linesman before putting on the wirenut. Wirenuts to me are just insulators in a box
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Any good electrician/electrical contractor knows to ignore the (no pretwist rule) and pre-twist anyway with linesman before putting on the wirenut.

I am so confused, wouldn't that same good electrician/electrical contractor know to make tight connections on a device? :huh:
 

Cletis

Senior Member
Location
OH
My job "as a great electrician", is to provide a safe and long lasting electrical installation free from hazards to property and humans. So, with that in mind, I do it just as our forefathers did (old knob and tube installers knew how). Make my pre-twisted splices, fold them up way in back of box and leave out a black and a white for future device replacements over the next 100 years. HO's and Non-Qualified Electricians usually do not mess with splices in the back of boxes. I know this because i've seen 100's of them in old knob and tube boxes never touched in 80 years
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
One manufacturer has (or had) instructions that said you are to twist the wire nut until you have two full twists showing below the skirt of the wire nut. If you do that with solid wire and then remove the wire nut, the twist in the bare part of the wires look exactly like they would if you pretwisted them.

That being said, when I was working with solid wire, I always pretwisted, but I don't think I have installed any solid wire on the job in the last 20 years or so.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
If I made a proposal to pigtail (bypass) all devices that feed through to others (120V resi and commercial) as a proposal for a future NEC edition, do you think this would be something shot down in flames or considered ?

I"ve just seen so many failures from bad devices over the years which kill everything downstream thought it might be good to have as code. We have done it on all jobs for as long as I remember as a company policy so it won't affect us really.
You have about 3 years to work up your public input and substantiation, and the closing date for 2017 public inputs was last Friday.
 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
That being said, when I was working with solid wire, I always pretwisted,

Same here.

but I don't think I have installed any solid wire on the job in the last 20 years or so.

Cable guy here and in this area it is solid. Tonight will be the third straight night doing nothing but cutting MC into ceiling boxes and hanging EBUs.

A few years ago the supply houses started sending out stranded MC but most of us did not like it and requested solid. Now unless you ask for stranded you will get solid. Solid MC is easier to run and puts an end to the 'stranded on a device screw' topic. :cool:
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
I have seen a large number of wirenut failures, better ban those as well.


Perhaps or improve on them. We know the you know the code better than even the CMP panels :happyyes:, but, they don't always reflect real data. Kind of like AFCIs and no real evidence arc faults are even a major contributor to fire hazards. However, Cletis may have a point imo when it comes to back stabbed outlets. Those I have seen fail so often Im still in disbelief they are in use.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Cletis may have a point imo when it comes to back stabbed outlets. Those I have seen fail so often Im still in disbelief they are in use.

I get worried when folks want to turn a safety standard into a quality assurance standard. To me those are two distinctly different objectives and not within the scope or purpose of the NEC.

People have a right to buy junk if that is what they want to do. :D
 

FREEBALL

Senior Member
Location
york pa usa
I pig tail everything that's the way I was taught, thanx to fast eddie from sanders electric in Fla. lol. But it was instilled in me that all devices should be pigtailed along with twisting your solid wire with 9's for best connection. I worked PT. for a reputable contractor this past year and the foreman checked my taps and device connections and was appreciative, but he was pissed when I cut off the stabilok connectors on lights and hard wired them lol. But I think something should be said about device connections that feed others.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
I get worried when folks want to turn a safety standard into a quality assurance standard. To me those are two distinctly different objectives and not within the scope or purpose of the NEC.

People have a right to buy junk if that is what they want to do. :D
And if the junk is UL listed, the inspector can still reject it, but will have a hard time justifying it.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
And if the junk is UL listed, the inspector can still reject it, but will have a hard time justifying it.

Perhaps in some states, not so much in Mass.:)

90.4. Revise the first paragraph to read as follows:

90.4 Enforcement. This Code shall be used by the authority enforcing the Code and exercising
legal jurisdiction over electrical installations. The authority having jurisdiction of enforcement
of the Code shall accept listed and labeled equipment or materials where used or installed in
accordance with instructions included with the listing or labeling.
The authority shall have the
responsibility for deciding upon the approval of unlisted or unlabeled equipment and materials,
and for granting the special permission contemplated in a number of the rules.
 
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