support?

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MR. S

Member
Location
Connecticut
OK, 2 surface mounted metal boxes 19" apart connected by 1/2" EMT. Do I need a support on that piece of EMT because it is less than 3' ?
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
@Mr. S,

Let me help you answer your own question. Here is what the NEC Says:

(A) Securely Fastened. EMT shall be securely fastened in place at least every 3 m (10 ft). In addition, each EMT run between termination points shall be securely fastened within 900 mm (3 ft) of each outlet box, junction box, device box, cabinet, conduit body, or other tubing termination.

So, if you have two junction boxes with an EMT "terminated property" at each end of the EMT, to a junction box.....would an additional fastener provide any additional value?

Wait let me ask it this way....Is your EMT securely fastened within 3' of each termination point?...If you say "YES" you have your answer.
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
of corse if you are in the 2008 NEC then you would have to contend with 358.30(C) Unsupported Raceways but uses the 2008 NEC anymore....;) (holding my breath on that one)
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
As useless as it may be a support is required.

I disagree...but I do with many its all good.

I happen to believe the termination at the junction boxes meet the requirement (and I am aware others disagree and will state the logic of why the 36" from a junction box reference) but I can only give you my position. (which may be wrong mind you...lol)
 
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jumper

Senior Member
@Mr. S,

Let me help you answer your own question. Here is what the NEC Says:

(A) Securely Fastened. EMT shall be securely fastened in place at least every 3 m (10 ft). In addition, each EMT run between termination points shall be securely fastened within 900 mm (3 ft) of each outlet box, junction box, device box, cabinet, conduit body, or other tubing termination.

So, if you have two junction boxes with an EMT "terminated property" at each end of the EMT, to a junction box.....would an additional fastener provide any additional value?

Wait let me ask it this way....Is your EMT securely fastened within 3' of each termination point?...If you say "YES" you have your answer.

Disagree.

2008 NEC had this:

Unsupported Raceways. Where oversized, concentric
or eccentric knockouts are not encountered, Type EMT
shall be permitted to be unsupported where the raceway is
not more than 450 mm (18 in.) and remains in unbroken
lengths (without coupling). Such raceways shall terminate
in an outlet box, device box, cabinet, or other termination at
each end of the raceway.

But it was removed from the 2011.
 

MR. S

Member
Location
Connecticut
"Wait let me ask it this way....Is your EMT securely fastened within 3' of each termination point?...If you say "YES" you have your answer." I disagree, you are supporting your EMT by boxes. They are not approved to support Conduit.
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
Whew....see you answered your own question but man the way I asked it was "a leap of faith"

Ok...so the reason I answer it that was is due to a proposal I have going in for the 2017 NEC. I need all the support I can get which is why I stated the 36" part....sorry for my madness.;)

More Info, in working with a specific junction box manufacturer and their mounting specifications, they believe that when a junction box is properly mounted, secure to the surface that if the raceway in less than 36" and is secured at both ends then additional securing is not needed. Hey..I tried but never the less the proposal will go in.
 
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infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Disagree.

2008 NEC had this:

Unsupported Raceways. Where oversized, concentric
or eccentric knockouts are not encountered, Type EMT
shall be permitted to be unsupported where the raceway is
not more than 450 mm (18 in.) and remains in unbroken
lengths (without coupling). Such raceways shall terminate
in an outlet box, device box, cabinet, or other termination at
each end of the raceway.



But it was removed from the 2011.

Yes, we had a one cycle reprieve from this dumb requirement. Maybe someone can fix this (again) in 2017. :)
 

jumper

Senior Member
Whew....see you answered your own question but man the way I asked it was "a leap of faith"

Ok...so the reason I answer it that was is due to a proposal I have going in for the 2017 NEC. I need all the support I can get which is why I stated the 36" part....sorry for my madness.;)

More Info, in working with a specific junction box manufacturer and their mounting specifications, they believe that when a junction box is properly mounted, secure to the surface that if the raceway in less than 36" and is secured at both ends then additional securing is not needed. Hey..I tried but never the less the proposal will go in.

How ya gonna get the fittings listed for support?
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
The same way we did with MC Cable in 330.30 (Kinda) " Type MC cable fittings shall be permitted as a means of cable support."

Give it time fella...give it time.

If we maintain the "within 36" requirement we are fine, it's the less than 36" that is secured to properly installed (and supported) junction boxes that we have to figure out. But as I said, it will be submitted in some form or fashion.
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
However, I feel like I hijacked Mr. S's thread..sorry my man...was not my intent as I just saw a moment and seized it. My Apologizes.
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
"Wait let me ask it this way....Is your EMT securely fastened within 3' of each termination point?...If you say "YES" you have your answer." I disagree, you are supporting your EMT by boxes. They are not approved to support Conduit.

Hmm....Am I not "Securely Fastening" the EMT in place as demanded by 358.30(A)?. AND it also says the runs shall be securely fastened (no supported) within 3' of termination points? Is it not "secure"?

Ok, sadly it was an effort to drum up support for my radical belief...lol....throw a strap on it...;)

My only hope is that Don does not come along with this logic....lol....since the proposal is already in.

there is nothing in the code that says conduit terminations for any of the non-flexible conduits are conduit supports. If they were, then why does the code require a support within 36" of a conduit termination?"
 
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don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
I don't see a real need to support such conduits, but I think that the current code is very clear, that a conduit, no matter how short, is required to be secured and supported.

The answer to this is, as stated above, to specify that for raceways that are 36" or less in length, that the conduit terminations shall be permitted to be used as the securing and supporting method.
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
I don't see a real need to support such conduits, but I think that the current code is very clear, that a conduit, no matter how short, is required to be secured and supported.

The answer to this is, as stated above, to specify that for raceways that are 36" or less in length, that the conduit terminations shall be permitted to be used as the securing and supporting method.

Man...what took you so long fella. Actually I remember the back and forth over this when 358.30(C) was added then removed so I don't expect much support (no pun intended) but you nailed the proposal.

I agree that the current code appears to be clear which is why I did not answer the OP's question directly and used it in a pathetic attempt to create a debate (even a weak attempt at best)..and my opinion. However, specific manufacturers are getting behind a proposal to do exactly as you stated. The real debate in various meetings have been the term "securely fastened". They believe it is at the termination point..so at one box the raceway is securely fastened at the other junction box and visa versa. Now it just needs to conveyed to the CMP. But as of right now..."sigh" add the strap:(
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
... But as of right now..."sigh" add the strap:(
The code says that, but I don't think there are too many inspectors that actually enforce that.

Some of the panel comments in the ROPs and ROCs on this issue show that the panel doesn't really seen a need for the support for short lengths of conduit, but they did not want to change the code...they wanted to leave it up to the inspector. They didn't seem to understand that the current wording does not really leave it up to the inspector.
 
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