240.85 for my employer

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jim dungar

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.... but the AIC rating may be too low.
The AIC rating has almost nothing to do with it.
A low amount of available Short Circuit Amps (SCA) may come into play, but that is unlikely.

Nine times out of ten, the 'slash rating' problem is with Line-Ground voltages and fault clearing, not the fact that it is simply single pole.
 

Rick Christopherson

Senior Member
Yeah, I forgot about the venting near the deadfront. I had seen a nice graphic explaining it a couple years ago, but couldn't find it any more.
Actually, I feel a little foolish about this. While searching for this forgotten graphic, I discovered that I was actually the person who originally posed the question, and you (Jim) were the person who answered it in the first place.
It's not an intuitive answer, so it didn't sink in the first time. :dunce: They say "3rd time's a charm", but I wouldn't count on that. punisher.gif
 

Rick Christopherson

Senior Member
As an employee, you really think you know what arrangements your employer has made with the customer? Your hubris is staggering.
I'd fire you on the spot for ordering those breakers without consulting me.
I disagree. Even in light of my first posting, Chris' actions were never in question. Not even I was disputing the non-compliance aspect of using slash-rated breakers in this application because it is clearly spelled out in 240.85.

Yes, it would be conceivable to get an engineering-driven variance, but that wasn't indicated. As long as a slash-rated breaker did not use the B-phase (high leg), an engineer might be able to get the AHJ to sign off on a variance, but that's going to be the only exception for not conforming to the blanket statement of 240.85.
 

iwire

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Massachusetts
As an employee, you really think you know what arrangements your employer has made with the customer? Your hubris is staggering.
I'd fire you on the spot for ordering those breakers without consulting me.

I don't think we have anywhere near enough knowledge of the situation to say that.

We don't know Chris's arraignments with his boss. For instance I am just an employee but I regularly run jobs, order stock, make design decisions without consulting the boss first ......... that is my job and I bet it is Chris's job as well.
 

jim dungar

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As long as a slash-rated breaker did not use the B-phase (high leg), an engineer might be able to get the AHJ to sign off on a variance, but that's going to be the only exception for not conforming to the blanket statement of 240.85.

A variance is not required if the slash-rated breaker is not used on the 'high leg'. "A-C" connections comply with 240.85 and 110.3. This is one reason many people will specify two panels, one 3-phase with no neutral conductor, and the other 1-phase with a neutral.
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
As an employee, you really think you know what arrangements your employer has made with the customer? Your hubris is staggering.
I'd fire you on the spot for ordering those breakers without consulting me.

Well, that seems a bit harsh to me. It would depend on your position and the culture of the company. I spent many years with a company that would never question me on something like this and using my own good judgement. Now if it was going to cost us a lot of money, they would expect a heads up first. We had a culture of just do the right thing. Same went for job visits by the boss. He would never approach one of my people, he would come to me first if he saw something he had a question about.
 
Well, that seems a bit harsh to me. It would depend on your position and the culture of the company. I spent many years with a company that would never question me on something like this and using my own good judgement. Now if it was going to cost us a lot of money, they would expect a heads up first. We had a culture of just do the right thing. Same went for job visits by the boss. He would never approach one of my people, he would come to me first if he saw something he had a question about.

I guess I feel that way because I have a very small company, and even $50 is important to the bottom line (ie, groceries.)
My assistant ran 12-3 for a 120v outlet the other day, and he sure did hear about that.
 

jim dungar

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PE (Retired) - Power Systems
I guess I feel that way because I have a very small company, and even $50 is important to the bottom line (ie, groceries.)

The OP said the company got paid for and made at least some profit on the breaker. This was not a situation where the boss had to 'eat' the mistake of an employee.
 

chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
Occupation
60 yr old tool twisting electrician
Even though this is time and material and he got to mark these up 20%, he just has a hard time with this, same old crap, "Who else would care", "You think the EI is going to catch that?"

If this was contract work I most definately would contact the office and give them time to shop the breakers. Then my employer would contact me and ask why I needed these.
 

chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
Occupation
60 yr old tool twisting electrician
This is not an isolated incedent. We have been at each others throats for 9yrs now. Yet, before or after hours when we sit around BSin about non-work related crap its quite enjoyable. I have recently expressed desire to end this relationship and was asked to reconsider as he would lose a lucrative nitch of work.

Didn't mean to come on here and vent, just looking to edcuate my employer with info such as given in Jim's post #16.

Thanks all.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
The AIC rating has almost nothing to do with it.
A low amount of available Short Circuit Amps (SCA) may come into play, but that is unlikely.

Nine times out of ten, the 'slash rating' problem is with Line-Ground voltages and fault clearing, not the fact that it is simply single pole.

Bussmans explanation was it was not voltage, it was available amperage for the reason. That was also was basically what you posted.
 

jim dungar

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Location
Wisconsin
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PE (Retired) - Power Systems

stevebea

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Location
Southeastern PA
This is not an isolated incedent. We have been at each others throats for 9yrs now. Yet, before or after hours when we sit around BSin about non-work related crap its quite enjoyable. I have recently expressed desire to end this relationship and was asked to reconsider as he would lose a lucrative nitch of work.

Didn't mean to come on here and vent, just looking to edcuate my employer with info such as given in Jim's post #16.

Thanks all.

At the end of the day , we need to do what we know is the " right thing " to do even if it's not popular or it costs more money. Sad thing is Chris, I have seen guy's in the past that are looked at by the "office" as being a PITA because supposedly they are trying to " reinvent " the wheel when in fact they are doing the " right thing". Most of the time doing the right thing dosen't equate to being popular.
 
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