Eliminating Buddy Requirement

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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
he/she would still be a trainee and so a novice.

A person who has already had training in a subject, and has demonstrated their knowledge of a subject is not a 'novice'.


No supervisor/foreman in your company?:)

I am both depending on my current assignment.

If I have live work to do another licensed person, with specific safety training along with a record of good judgement would be sent to work with me. No trainees, apprentices or novices would be considered.


Understand live work is very small percentage of what we do. The vast majority of the time the work is done dead. This is the time we use to train novices.
 

Haji

Banned
Location
India
It doesn't matter, apprentices or trainees are not permitted to do live work, no matter how many qualified people are there watching the work.

I mean the trainer doing the live work while the trainees are there watching the work and helping him to do the work and also doing the work along with him. The IEEE rule below does not ban it, as those trainees are considered 'qualified' by it.
IEEE C2 (2012)
Qualified: Having been trained in and having demonstrated adequate knowledge of the installation, constmction, or operation of lines and equipment and the hazards involved, including identification of and exposure to electric supply and communication lines and equipment in or near the workplace. An employee who is undergoing on-the-job training and who, in the course of such training, has demonstrated an ability to perform duties safely at his or her level of training, and who is under the direct supervision of a qualified person, is considered to be a qualified person for the performance of those duties.
Otherwise how do you think the trainees could get the experience of doing live work ?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I mean the trainer doing the live work while the trainees are there watching the work and helping him to do the work and also doing the work along with him.

And again we don't do that. Trainees are not allowed in the vicinity of live work.

We train them doing 'dead' work.

The IEEE rule below does not ban it,


That is fine however I have to comply with OSHA rules. https://www.osha.gov/ OSHA is not a 'recommended standard' it is Federal law in the US.


as those trainees are considered 'qualified' by it.
IEEE C2 (2012)
Qualified: Having been trained in and having demonstrated adequate knowledge of the installation, constmction, or operation of lines and equipment and the hazards involved, including identification of and exposure to electric supply and communication lines and equipment in or near the workplace. An employee who is undergoing on-the-job training and who, in the course of such training, has demonstrated an ability to perform duties safely at his or her level of training, and who is under the direct supervision of a qualified person, is considered to be a qualified person for the performance of those duties.

And one more time, someone that has had training and demonstrated an ability to perform duties safely is not a novice as you keep insisting.

They are trained and knowledgeable, that means they are no longer novices.

I find it funny you keep fighting this as when I look at your profile it states you are a tel com engineer with a fake zip code which, when taken with your name leads me to believe you live outside the US. If that is the case I doubt you have any first hand experience with live electrical work procedures in the US.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
The 225A designation is asinine: That current value has nothing to do with the shock risk, so I fail to see why that would come into play. If there concern is arc flash then they need to have a flash-hazard analysis performed, because arbitrarily selecting 225A does absolutely nothing to tell you what kind of incident-energy a worker could be exposed to; someone could still be very severely burned below that threshold.

not at all, if you consider how this rule was most likely written, and by whom....
i'm guessing some middle manager cost accountant, who wants to reduce the body count
and save money.

the author wants people to be able to work in "little" panels, like the ones you find on a wall,
not "big" panels, like the ones in the main switchgear room.

and the break point of most commercial and industrial sub panels is 225 amps, therefore,
let's put a limit on the panel size of 225 amps. problem solved.

next problem.... what are we going to do with that rope we don't need any more? can we
sell it on ebay?
 

Haji

Banned
Location
India
I have to comply with OSHA rules. https://www.osha.gov/ OSHA is not a 'recommended standard' it is Federal law in the US.
State the OSHA rule or at least its number.
I find it funny you keep fighting this as when I look at your profile it states you are a tel com engineer with a fake zip code which, when taken with your name leads me to believe you live outside the US.
Thanks for pointing out about the fake zip code. I tried to fill it up with the pin-code of my location in India as the zip-code is a required field. So now I changed it 00000 to satisfy the program.
I doubt you have any first hand experience with live electrical work procedures in the US.
Yes I have no first hand experience with live electrical work procedures in the US. But this does not prevent me to question the stupidity in your way of doing work.
 

gnuuser

Member
Location
Nw.Pa.
State the OSHA rule or at least its number.

Thanks for pointing out about the fake zip code. I tried to fill it up with the pin-code of my location in India as the zip-code is a required field. So now I changed it 00000 to satisfy the program.

Yes I have no first hand experience with live electrical work procedures in the US. But this does not prevent me to question the stupidity in your way of doing work.

thats ok Haji
too many electricians fall into the same mud hole of slamming others who are asking questions about a different country and their electrical system!
I run into that a lot on british and australian forums as well
rather than argue a point and get a bunch of abuse. you can just suggest the difference whether they listen to it or not

I for one value the input from electricians all over the world
because every day you learn something new and any day you don't learn is a wasted day in your life
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
State the OSHA rule or at least its number.


1910.333(c)(2)

"Work on energized equipment." Only qualified persons may work on electric circuit parts or equipment that have not been deenergized under the procedures of paragraph (b) of this section. Such persons shall be capable of working safely on energized circuits and shall be familiar with the proper use of special precautionary techniques, personal protective equipment, insulating and shielding materials, and insulated tools.




OSHA 1926.32(m)

"Qualified" means one who, by possession of a recognized degree, certificate, or professional standing, or who by extensive knowledge, training, and experience, has successfully demonstrated his ability to solve or resolve problems relating to the subject matter, the work, or the project.

Notice qualified is by no means a novice or trainee.



Thanks for pointing out about the fake zip code. I tried to fill it up with the pin-code of my location in India as the zip-code is a required field. So now I changed it 00000 to satisfy the program.

I was not pointing out anything, just trying to understand the person I am posting with.

Yes I have no first hand experience with live electrical work procedures in the US. But this does not prevent me to question the stupidity in your way of doing work.


:lol: Well it should prevent you from calling our methods stupid.

You can certainly question our methods but to decide something is stupid without any experience with it at all seems rather ...... stupid.




thats ok Haji
too many electricians fall into the same mud hole of slamming others who are asking questions about a different country and their electrical system!

I have not slammed him at all, with every post I have tried to explain our methods and our rules. I just cant figure out why someone with out any experience with the rules is fighting so hard against the answers he is receiving.

I run into that a lot on british and australian forums as well
rather than argue a point and get a bunch of abuse. you can just suggest the difference whether they listen to it or not

It is always great to learn new things, I thing Haji would be wise to take note.
 
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Haji

Banned
Location
India


1910.333(c)(2)

"Work on energized equipment." Only qualified persons may work on electric circuit parts or equipment that have not been deenergized under the procedures of paragraph (b) of this section. Such persons shall be capable of working safely on energized circuits and shall be familiar with the proper use of special precautionary techniques, personal protective equipment, insulating and shielding materials, and insulated tools.






OSHA 1926.32(m)

"Qualified" means one who, by possession of a recognized degree, certificate, or professional standing, or who by extensive knowledge, training, and experience, has successfully demonstrated his ability to solve or resolve problems relating to the subject matter, the work, or the project.


Notice qualified is by no means a novice or trainee.​
Read again. The OSHA considers a person fresh from college with a degree also as ''qualified''. So he should not be considered as novice or trainee. Your company should allow him to work with you on live work. :)


:lol: Well it should prevent you from calling our methods stupid.

You can certainly question our methods but to decide something is stupid without any experience with it at all seems rather ...... stupid.
It is rather a pity that you still do not see how expertise is transferred from one person to another.
Perhaps, the effect of too much ingestion of beef burgers and the like.:lol:


 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Read again. The OSHA considers a person fresh from college with a degree also as ''qualified''. So he should not be considered as novice or trainee. Your company should allow him to work with you on live work. :)


You are absoulty correct, as long as that college degree is about doing live work.

You need to read the entire paragraph.


It is rather a pity that you still do not see how expertise is transferred from one person to another.

I was an aprentice for four years, I train apprentices so you are dead wrong on my understanding of it.​
 

Haji

Banned
Location
India

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Which college in the world offers electrical degree on live work?!
Answer:None.

I would bet you are correct.

So college degree holders cannot do live work with me until they have received training and demonstrated their knowledge in that specific subject.

See how easy it is?


Oh no, you do not get it. As a starter, I would recommend the following book to get an idea.
http://www.amazon.in/Deep-Smarts-Cul.../dp/1591395283


I would probably do better following my local areas requirements for training. :D
 

Haji

Banned
Location
India
I would bet you are correct.

So college degree holders cannot do live work with me until they have received training and demonstrated their knowledge in that specific subject.

See how easy it is?
You think OSHA officials are foolish enough to state recognized degree holders who, by possession of such a degree, has successfully demonstrated his ability to solve or resolve problems relating to the subject matter, the work, or the project and so are qualified to do energized work.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
Yes I have no first hand experience with live electrical work procedures in the US.
But this does not prevent me to question the stupidity in your way of doing work.

nor does it prevent us from laughing at you.

you continue ranting about something you have no firsthand experience with.
the server for this forum, and most of the participants do not reside in india.
we do not speak to your hot work practices, nor do we profess to know what
your common practices are in india.

a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

just the cowboy

Inactive, Email Never Verified
Location
newburgh,ny
Can't just sit by

Can't just sit by

You think OSHA officials are foolish enough to state recognized degree holders who, by possession of such a degree, has successfully demonstrated his ability to solve or resolve problems relating to the subject matter, the work, or the project and so are qualified to do energized work.

You seem to want us to say you can do work hot, it will not happen. Too many of us have worked in this field to know better than have a unqualified person work hot, WE RESPECT LIFE it seems you do not if you want a novice or unqualified persons working in a hot situation.:slaphead::sick: Work safe or die thats how I leave for work everyday as an electrician, and I go home.
 

big john

Senior Member
Location
Portland, ME
Which college in the world offers electrical degree on live work?!
Answer:None...
The terms laid out in the OSHA standard are possibilities, not guarantees: It is possible a person may be effectively qualified by degree or certificate, but it is absolutely not a guarantee that a degree or certificate qualifies a person.

OSHA can reference NFPA 70E in citations because it is a recognized standard for electrical safety. As an example, 70E defines qualified as
One who has the demonstrated skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training to identify and avoid the hazards involved.
Following that guideline, even electricians with the same licenses will not always be qualified the same way because of different work experiences. E.g., I often see licensed guys who have little knowledge of >1000V equipment, who would be frankly unqualified to work on it because their training did not address that.

I would agree with others that a pretty universal guideline in this country for qualifying workers is for them to have extensive training on similar equipment while de-energized.
 

Dan Kissel

Member
Location
st louis, mo
Too much safety

Too much safety

IMHO - Arc Flash restriction is out of control. I don't advocate working dangerously BUT most of us voluntarily take much bigger risks in sports, driving and living than a code writer would allow in the work place. I'd rather be aware of the risks, mitigate them as I choose and be allowed to take them if I choose. I would probably earn a higher wage and live better than the person that inflates costs by feather bedding work or work regulation that sap efficiency. Everyone who wants to work risk free needs to work in an office but you can still get a paper cut.

If you wanted to make widget factory and looked at the cost of regulations and bureaucrats, would you build in this country?

Opportunity is lost in this country in part because somebody gets a million dollars because THEY spill hot coffee in THEIR lap after they asked for the hot coffee. If the code writers had it their way, I have to suit up to drink a cup of warm coffee.
 

gnuuser

Member
Location
Nw.Pa.
I just cant figure out why someone with out any experience with the rules is fighting so hard against the answers he is receiving.



It is always great to learn new things, I thing Haji would be wise to take note.

i think it more of misunderstanding of the differences and what they are used to in their own country
and as far as taking notes I agree 100 %
we are on a forum that is open to other cultures and electrical systems
having knowledge to help one another understand the systems makes us safer electricians and world wide friends
its a difficult task to keep from criticizing another countries systems with out fully and completely understanding it.
and a monumental task just to keep nationality out of the picture.

you would not believe the amount of abuse ive had to deal with just because i'm American

Im on international forums to learn those differences and use some of them to improve the methods we use every day
as any method that makes you a safer person is better in the long run and keeps you around to enjoy your family
 

big john

Senior Member
Location
Portland, ME
IMHO - Arc Flash restriction is out of control. I don't advocate working dangerously BUT most of us voluntarily take much bigger risks in sports, driving and living than a code writer would allow in the work place....
And if someone wants to endanger themselves, that is their choice. These laws are in place to help prevent employers from compelling their workers into dangerous acts and exposing their customers to significant liability.
 
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