Careful Not to Oversell

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jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
An afterthought on a job I didn't get. Man stopped by a house when I was finishing up rewiring after the SECOND copper theft there. Asked me to look at his rental house nearby. Thieves got the water lines, heat pump, part of air handler & half the wire. I priced a rewire figuring some new wiring & just new home runs on some. I figured new receptacles & AFI breakers, etc. He seemed happy with quote but I didn't get the job.

I should have quoted a price for replacing devices & a price to leave as is. I may have gotten it then. Customer was facing a very expensive job at best, with so much stolen.
 

ASK_EDDIE

Member
Location
TEXAS
I see several of these a year with mostly reality companies , they always want the bare minimum. They just want it spliced and how cheap can you do it. It seems like every foreclosure around here either the A/C is missing or the wire OR both
 

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
I see several of these a year with mostly reality companies , they always want the bare minimum. They just want it spliced and how cheap can you do it. It seems like every foreclosure around here either the A/C is missing or the wire OR both

Exactly, this was a foreclosure. Man & wife bought it to rent out. I think he had no idea what he was in for. In fact, he 1st approached me because the meter base was burned & had to be replaced. I called him over & showed him all the missing stuff, surprised he didn't freak. Fortunately for him, house was still in very good condition, should rent easily for a decent price, even in a fringe neighborhood. I have to condition myself to think "cheap" in these cases. Bare minimum to be legal & lowest quality of work I can still sign my name to. That's a tough one for me, as I take pride in high quality work.

I tend to think, "do it now, while work is in progress". A bean counter thinks, "how soon can it be producing for us instead of costing us".

Our town has whole neighborhoods with iron cages around any outdoor HVAC eqpmt & locks on crawlspace hatches.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Exactly, this was a foreclosure. Man & wife bought it to rent out. I think he had no idea what he was in for. In fact, he 1st approached me because the meter base was burned & had to be replaced. I called him over & showed him all the missing stuff, surprised he didn't freak. Fortunately for him, house was still in very good condition, should rent easily for a decent price, even in a fringe neighborhood. I have to condition myself to think "cheap" in these cases. Bare minimum to be legal & lowest quality of work I can still sign my name to. That's a tough one for me, as I take pride in high quality work.

I tend to think, "do it now, while work is in progress". A bean counter thinks, "how soon can it be producing for us instead of costing us".

Our town has whole neighborhoods with iron cages around any outdoor HVAC eqpmt & locks on crawlspace hatches.

Here is my take on upsale and since I've been out of the field for a long time it may not hold much weight.

We have a lot of electrical contractors in a town of this size. One when called for lets just say a bad breaker will show up tell them that they need a service change have to upgrade everything, etc. His opinion is make as much as you can at each job and he doesn't care about repeat customers, which is good because some that have hired him have said that they'll never hire him again. A couple of the other ones in town will go over replace the breaker and tell the customer to call them if they need anything else. They live off of repeat customers with little or no avertising. Want to guess who I recomend?

Getting all that you can may work for some as long as people aren't going around saying what a crook you are. I've always felt that you could make a better living off of repeat customers and referls.

Now I don't have any problem if you charge $200 for a service call. I have a problem when, even though a $200 service call would have fixed the problem, they are being upsold $5000 worth of othe work.
 

Sparky555

Senior Member
Here is my take on upsale and since I've been out of the field for a long time it may not hold much weight.

We have a lot of electrical contractors in a town of this size. One when called for lets just say a bad breaker will show up tell them that they need a service change have to upgrade everything, etc. His opinion is make as much as you can at each job and he doesn't care about repeat customers, which is good because some that have hired him have said that they'll never hire him again. A couple of the other ones in town will go over replace the breaker and tell the customer to call them if they need anything else. They live off of repeat customers with little or no avertising. Want to guess who I recomend?

Getting all that you can may work for some as long as people aren't going around saying what a crook you are. I've always felt that you could make a better living off of repeat customers and referls.

Now I don't have any problem if you charge $200 for a service call. I have a problem when, even though a $200 service call would have fixed the problem, they are being upsold $5000 worth of othe work.

In residential service repeats & referrals are not enough. IMHO every house over 20 years old needs $5k in electrical work:

Second ground rod and bonding.
Inter-wired smoke and CO alarms.
Additional alarms inside bedrooms.
Additional GFCI outlets.
AFCI breakers.
WWIU exterior covers.
TR outlets.
Bath circuit(s).

Add to this a list of optional items. Residential service is all about sales.
 

satcom

Senior Member
In residential service repeats & referrals are not enough. IMHO every house over 20 years old needs $5k in electrical work:

Second ground rod and bonding.
Inter-wired smoke and CO alarms.
Additional alarms inside bedrooms.
Additional GFCI outlets.
AFCI breakers.
WWIU exterior covers.
TR outlets.
Bath circuit(s).

Add to this a list of optional items. Residential service is all about sales.

What country are you in? none of those items are required in an existing home.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
In residential service repeats & referrals are not enough. IMHO every house over 20 years old needs $5k in electrical work:

Second ground rod and bonding.
Inter-wired smoke and CO alarms.
Additional alarms inside bedrooms.
Additional GFCI outlets.
AFCI breakers.
WWIU exterior covers.
TR outlets.
Bath circuit(s).

Add to this a list of optional items. Residential service is all about sales.

It might need it, but this is America, and we have a choice to live as we want to live, The more grandfather laws are walked on the more people will loose their home because they don't have the money to do all this work, I have seen it, and I can't see living on the street as being safer for anyone, we need to quit padding everyones world, if we want to live dangerously then it is our given right! or should we outlaw everything in this world that might hurt us?
 

justdavemamm

Senior Member
Location
Rochester NY
... IMHO every house over 20 years old needs $5k in electrical work: ...

Are you on many CMP's ?

My house is turning 22 years old this month.

Second ground rod and bonding.
Nope. All fine.

Inter-wired smoke and CO alarms.

Was built that way

Additional alarms inside bedrooms.

none needed.

Additional GFCI outlets.

nope. enough of 'em built in.

AFCI breakers.

don't want them.

WWIU exterior covers.

not needed. old style fine

TR outlets.

not needed

Bath circuit(s).

plenty of 'em
 
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ASK_EDDIE

Member
Location
TEXAS
Whats bugging me lately is home inspectors putting on every inspection report, " there are no AFCI breakers in the panel." what i want them them to do is find afci breakers for zinsco or federal panels. I talked with one, he's not saying they need them but the Texas Association of Real Estate Inspectors requires him to mention it on every report done. However real estate brokers dont get it, home owners dont get , prospective buyers of the home dont get it.
 

Sparky555

Senior Member
The point I'm attempting to make is that it is poor advice IMHO to suggest that a good business model is doing $200 repairs with no effort to up-sell, and without advertising. In a 100% residential service it will be a short experiment. A very happy customer may only call once every 5 years.

Calculate how many customers it would take to have a 100% residential service business with $200 repairs and customers calling once every 5 years (2500 customers/$100k annual).

It's an entirely different story for those with a full-time job doing resi service work on the side, or those with commercial work using resi service several hours a week as fill-in.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
The point I'm attempting to make is that it is poor advice IMHO to suggest that a good business model is doing $200 repairs with no effort to up-sell, and without advertising. In a 100% residential service it will be a short experiment. A very happy customer may only call once every 5 years.

Calculate how many customers it would take to have a 100% residential service business with $200 repairs and customers calling once every 5 years (2500 customers/$100k annual).

It's an entirely different story for those with a full-time job doing resi service work on the side, or those with commercial work using resi service several hours a week as fill-in.

I've had this conversation more times than I can remember and of course I'm not saying that my way is the only way.

But, you go over there and say it's gonna cost $5000, they say no thanks. I go over and say it's $200 they say go ahead. I made $200 you made $0 and guess who they'll probably call when they do finally need their service change or their AC hooked up? And they'll probably recommend me to their friends.

Now if you tell me that you wouldn't send you on your way then we'll have a real difference of opinion.

I didn't feel like changing out my windows so I called a guy that was offering a one time only discount if I changed them by the end of the month. He showed up at my house measued my 12 windows and said that they would do all of the work for only $7000 I laughed my you know what off, told him to have a nice night after I handed him one of my business cards and then did the whole job my self for less $3000 including my time. Had a plumber that only charges $70 to snake out a drain, gets to my house tell's me it's gonna cost $100 because he has to come inside, because the clean out is under the sink in the kitchen. I told him that I had a better solution, and pointed to the vent on the second story and told him that he could snake it from out there and then he didn't have to come inside.

Now I recommend a lot of contractors, want to guess who I don't recommend?

As the post stated in the beginning, you can upsell your self right out of a job.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
As the post stated in the beginning, you can upsell your self right out of a job.
Agreed. Just today, I did a quick T/S call for a possibly-broken pull-chain switch for the light kit of a ceiling-fan. I gave my 1-hour minimum (1.5 hrs) and told him it would be more if I had to make a store run.

I went, it was the switch. He had a wall switch he used anyway, so I cut the two wires to the switch wire-nutted them, and removed the switch. He was very happy and plans to call us back to R&R his smokes.

I asked if he could think of anything else that needed attention, but did not push myself on him with suggestions of inspecting his panel and the like. I gave him what he called me for, and didn't try to milk him.
 

readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
I've lost work in the past by not up-selling, customer would ask me to look at for example a panel, I'd say it didn't really need changing, later they call someone else that said that it did and they got the job.

Now I'm trying to be vague as to how important it would be to for example change out an old panel, give a price in case they do decide to change it.

I'll post again in 25 years to let y'all know how this works out.
 

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
I've lost jobs because some jobs would require smoke detectors the customer couldn't pay for or AFCI breakers he couldn't pay for. My house doesn't have AFCI breakers. Do you know how much sleep I've lost over it? Zip, zilch and zero. I've been around the house & gotten rid of any backstabs & pigtailed my connections. Chances of arcing are now pretty close to zero. Not having AFCI protection is far less risky than leaving the house every morning.

Sometimes customer wanted a receptacle added to a room, but an AFCI breaker & permit fees drove it out of his range. So he decided to use a long drop cord instead. Or a small project kicked in requirements for smoke detectors. Again, don't do, use drop cords. Did the law increase his safety or decrease it? Some people do live near the edge, maybe their own fault, but fact remains they only have so much money & can only buy so much safety. So instead of getting a little safer, they wind up getting no safer because they can't take it all the way.
 

bradleyelectric

Senior Member
Location
forest hill, md
I've had this conversation more times than I can remember and of course I'm not saying that my way is the only way.

But, you go over there and say it's gonna cost $5000, they say no thanks. I go over and say it's $200 they say go ahead. I made $200 you made $0 and guess who they'll probably call when they do finally need their service change or their AC hooked up? And they'll probably recommend me to their friends.

Now if you tell me that you wouldn't send you on your way then we'll have a real difference of opinion.

The truth is for a service contractor you didn't make $200 you brought in $200 in revenue. About what it cost you to go and do the job. That is the point Sparky555 was trying to make. It would be nice to upsell something so you actually make something while your there.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The truth is for a service contractor you didn't make $200 you brought in $200 in revenue. About what it cost you to go and do the job. That is the point Sparky555 was trying to make. It would be nice to upsell something so you actually make something while your there.

If it cost $200.00 to do the job then you need to charge more than $200.00 to make profit. Upselling especially something like a service upgrade is nothing more than getting another job at same location. Fixing the original problem for a separate fee from a possible service upgrade may get you both jobs.


If you have an older vehicle and take it in for service do they try to upsell you all the latest safety standards that are installed on new cars?

Is it illegal to drive a 30 year old car if it does not have airbags, antilock brakes, or other newer safety features?
 

bradleyelectric

Senior Member
Location
forest hill, md
If it cost $200.00 to do the job then you need to charge more than $200.00 to make profit. Upselling especially something like a service upgrade is nothing more than getting another job at same location. Fixing the original problem for a separate fee from a possible service upgrade may get you both jobs.


If you have an older vehicle and take it in for service do they try to upsell you all the latest safety standards that are installed on new cars?

Is it illegal to drive a 30 year old car if it does not have airbags, antilock brakes, or other newer safety features?

Did you miss this post that i was refering to?

The point I'm attempting to make is that it is poor advice IMHO to suggest that a good business model is doing $200 repairs with no effort to up-sell, and without advertising. In a 100% residential service it will be a short experiment. A very happy customer may only call once every 5 years.

Calculate how many customers it would take to have a 100% residential service business with $200 repairs and customers calling once every 5 years (2500 customers/$100k annual).

It's an entirely different story for those with a full-time job doing resi service work on the side, or those with commercial work using resi service several hours a week as fill-in.

My post was referencing that there is a big difference between bringing in revenue and making money.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
"Man & wife bought it to rent out." THERE is the problem.

I bet their 'take' would be different if THEY planned to live in it. With this current market, I also bet that the 'rent' will completely pay off the purchase in less than five years.

Especially in a situation like this, you can't give a price unseen. You might open the discussion by quoting a price for YOU to inspect the palce and give a report that details the situation. Then they can go shopping for a sparky.

Why? Because it's all too possible for the job to grow. You may not have enough wire left to attach devices. You might be opening walls all over the place. How much you need to do depends on what damage has been done.

Simply replacing devices is a 'repair,' and that's pretty much all you need to do. (Well, the bath needs a GFCI). A complete rewire means the whole shebang needs to meet current code- 100-A service, AFCI's, TR/WR, additional circuits, permit, etc.

These folks are playing at being in 'business.' Well, there is something called "businessmans' risk."

Minor rant: It really frosts me when folks assert that there is no need for the 'little people' to have the same protections and minimun standards as everyone else. Rant over.
 
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