Main breaker at the street by meter pedastool...

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Klockopotomis

Member
Location
Parker CO
I bought material for this new house before visiting the site and i bought a main brkr 200A panel, however i found the meter pedastool at the front of the property and i had to install the main brkr there. So i can't find a code ref why i can't still use the main brkr panel installed in the house, I was going to put a disconnect at front corner of house and panel in basement. Any thoughts?
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
I bought material for this new house before visiting the site and i bought a main brkr 200A panel, however i found the meter pedastool at the front of the property and i had to install the main brkr there. So i can't find a code ref why i can't still use the main brkr panel installed in the house, I was going to put a disconnect at front corner of house and panel in basement. Any thoughts?
Use the panel you bought.

What do you mean you had to install a main breaker in a meter pedestal?
 
There's no need to have an additional discount at the corner of the house.
But you will need to treat your remote panel not as the main discount which will mean a different wiring configuration...sorry, got off track you will not find a code reference not allowing it.


I bought material for this new house before visiting the site and i bought a main brkr 200A panel, however i found the meter pedastool at the front of the property and i had to install the main brkr there. So i can't find a code ref why i can't still use the main brkr panel installed in the house, I was going to put a disconnect at front corner of house and panel in basement. Any thoughts?
 
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Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Install main breaker panel basically the same as you would have as service equipment except no main bonding jumper (remove or do not install neutral-ground bonging screw)... and run an EGC from pedestal to house. Everything else is the same at house. Pedestal is where the main bonding jumper is located, and will also need a grounding electrode system there, too (suggest two ground rods).
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
I bought material for this new house before visiting the site and i bought a main brkr 200A panel, however i found the meter pedastool at the front of the property and i had to install the main brkr there. So i can't find a code ref why i can't still use the main brkr panel installed in the house, I was going to put a disconnect at front corner of house and panel in basement. Any thoughts?

Some local POCO's require an exterior disconnect -- Nec does not require the structure disconnect to be exterior.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Some local POCO's require an exterior disconnect -- Nec does not require the structure disconnect to be exterior.
Not sure what point you are making here... but I'd say the pedestal qualifies as an exterior service disconnecting means. ;)
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The house still needs a main disconnect (or up to six grouped together) as it is still a separate structure.

More details are necessary to determine if the feed to the house is to be considered service or feeder though.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
The house still needs a main disconnect (or up to six grouped together) as it is still a separate structure.
Exactly why I said earlier to install the MCB panrl as if it was service equipment (other than the differences I noted).

More details are necessary to determine if the feed to the house is to be considered service or feeder though.
I'd say a main breaker at the pedestal qualifies the feed to the house as a feeder. I don't believe I've ever heard of a breaker on the service side of a service point... at least not that close to a residential property :D.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Exactly why I said earlier to install the MCB panrl as if it was service equipment (other than the differences I noted).


I'd say a main breaker at the pedestal qualifies the feed to the house as a feeder. I don't believe I've ever heard of a breaker on the service side of a service point... at least not that close to a residential property :D.
You did not make it clear that you have a feeder to a separate structure and that that structure still needs a disconnecting means similar to what it would need if supplied by a service.

I do mention more details are necessary only because we don't know where the service point is, and who controls this breaker in the pedestal. Around here inspectors will not count that pedestal as the service disconnect if it is owned or otherwise controlled by the POCO. Many POCO here would charge the customer for the pedestal and it essentially is the customers property, but upgrade your service and or have a failure that requires replacement of that pedestal and there is no assurance the POCO will replace with something providing overcurrent protection - so inspectors still consider anything like that that is primarily taken care of by POCO as having service conductors leaving it. Something not clearly spelled out in NEC yet is something that happens a lot around here - especially on farm properties. Same POCO's are serving city/village customers and lately have been putting same meter/breaker units at the pole and customer installs everything from that point on, even though they did pay for the meter/breaker when it needs replaced there is no guarantee POCO will replace it with same or equivalent component - leaving a once code compliant install non-compliant.

I will add that they were doing this before they changed code to require an EGC in all feeders supplying separate buildings.

Example back then that some found to be a PIA: POCO sets a pole next to a mobile home with meter/main attached to it. Contractor was still required to install a separate service disconnecting means as POCO could possibly change that meter/main to something non fused and then we end up having service conductors supplying the panel in the mobile home. They are still consistent with calling load side of such POCO installed equipment as service equipment even if there are overcurrent devices in that equipment.
 
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don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
There's no need to have an additional discount at the corner of the house. ...
That depends on the location of the panel inside the house. If that panel is not located "nearest the point of entrance" of the feeder conductors, that outside disconnect will be required. 225.32
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I read the OP asking why he needed to have a main installed at the meter.

To answer that question the answer is NEC does not require it, the service disconnect can be at his structure.

It is possible he has POCO or even other local codes that require the disconnect in question. IMO he needs to find out from the AHJ if that they require that to be the service disconnect. Really the only difference the answer to that question makes is whether the supply to the house is service conductors or feeder conductors and if an EGC needs run as well. Otherwise the house still needs a main disconnect either outside(at the structure supplied) or at a point nearest the point of entrance.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
To answer that question the answer is NEC does not require it, the service disconnect can be at his structure.

It is possible he has POCO or even other local codes that require the disconnect in question. IMO he needs to find out from the AHJ if that they require that to be the service disconnect. Really the only difference the answer to that question makes is whether the supply to the house is service conductors or feeder conductors and if an EGC needs run as well. Otherwise the house still needs a main disconnect either outside(at the structure supplied) or at a point nearest the point of entrance.
To me, it sounds as those jurisdictions that have disconnects remote to the house, and still calling the supply conductors a service, need to get their heads out of the clouds and realize we are now more than a decade into the 21st century.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
To me, it sounds as those jurisdictions that have disconnects remote to the house, and still calling the supply conductors a service, need to get their heads out of the clouds and realize we are now more than a decade into the 21st century.
I totally disagree. POCO's don't know NEC. If the remote disconnect is POCO installed, maintained or otherwise - who is going to ensure they replace with same thing?

In cities/villages or other residential zoned areas maybe your comment makes more sense.

When the POCO serves both farms and city/village customers they have lately been tending to do the same for small services no matter where located which typically is a meter/main (the main may have overcurrent protection, it may not depending on other details) on a pole and customer owned/installed load conductors from that point on.

On the farm that pole location can vary and depends on agreements between onwer and POCO. The owner is typically paying for this pole, the equipment they mount on it, and conductors back to the public right of way portion of the distribution system, but POCO still maintains them. The price they pay is usually less then what a contractor could put it in for though.

Lets say they build a house on a farm and maybe have a couple outbuildings, nothing too heavy for load and supply it with 200 amp 120/240 single phase service with a 200 amp meter and main breaker located on a "central pole" Now two years later the owner that lives on the farm decides to install some grain storage bins and needs to upgrade the supply system (I will not call it service at this point to reduce confusion of whether the conductors leaving that are indeed feeder or service conductors). After determining what additional load is necessary they change the meter/disconnect equipment to 400 amp three phase meter with non fused disconnect. Now we have what once was the service disconnect still supplying same equipment (plus additional equipment) that is technically no longer the service disconnect. Happens all the time here - especially with the rural POCO's. It also happens the other way sometimes where there was no overcurrent protection and a change is made and overcurrent protection is installed when all is said and done.

One of the most common changes is when the POCO supplies a meter unit with a transfer switch. The units they are installing are not listed, but they can do it because they are the POCO and are not obligated to follow NEC. I have one of these transfer switch units at my place, and mostly because they put it in for less then I could have installed any transfer switch myself (even after considering I am an EC) at the time it was put in. Today it would cost more, but so does everything else.

If POCO owns or maintains it, the general rule for now is it is still service conductors on the load side - who knows what changes they may make down the road.

If it is not POCO owned or maintained - then an electrician (sometimes the owner) will be the one that makes changes and it should have to comply with NEC - then such equipment will have feeders on the load side if that equipment is a NEC qualifying service disconnecting means.

In the cities/villages where they more recently are installing same meter/mains they typically are installing them at an existing pole in the alley or near the street. They haven't been doing this for all that long yet, but they are still able to change it to anything they desire should it need changed with no permit, no inspection - it is regarded as service conductors leaving that point at this time.

The rural POCO has started doing this in cities/villages as a way to reduce their service call costs for underground service laterals. They still will maintain a lateral that has a meter on the house, but by putting the meter at the pole and a disconnecting means - they have allowed for the owner/owner's hired service tech to be able to disconnect at the pole and do any necessary maintenance/repairs to those underground conductors without having to call the POCO - if anything to at least not have to disconnect/reconnect them.
 
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